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Hands Up Don't Shoot!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    The real issue is the lie of "hands up, don't shoot". The motivations of the department are wholly inconsequential to that being a lie. The left made this lie a full on national phenomenon. Now, when the lie was exposed, the goal posts shift to "well it had the POTENTIAL to have happened given the climate in the town"...
    It seems to me that non-violent protests in Ferguson were "right for the wrong reasons". That is, it was fine to protest a pattern of civil rights issues in the community, but they were rallying around the wrong case. It made me a bit sick to see all those "hands up, don't shoot" demonstrations. I would have been more supportive of the civil rights issues if people hadn't been focused on that one extremely flawed case.
    Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
      It seems to me that non-violent protests in Ferguson were "right for the wrong reasons". That is, it was fine to protest a pattern of civil rights issues in the community, but they were rallying around the wrong case. It made me a bit sick to see all those "hands up, don't shoot" demonstrations. I would have been more supportive of the civil rights issues if people hadn't been focused on that one extremely flawed case.
      It would have also helped if a bunch of the local (and imported) hoodlums hadn't burned down their own local businesses and rioted.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        The real issue is the lie of "hands up, don't shoot". The motivations of the department are wholly inconsequential to that being a lie. The left made this lie a full on national phenomenon. Now, when the lie was exposed, the goal posts shift to "well it had the POTENTIAL to have happened given the climate in the town"...
        Yes, and Al Sharpton milked this for all it was worth. He is shameless in his own self promotion.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
          You seem to have a lot of trouble getting your head around the idea that a cop can arrest a black man without legal justification and without being racist.
          It isn't happening to non-black people at particularly high rates.


          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
          Of course it's "problematic" It's obvious Ferguson whites and blacks don't like each other (and the black community in Ferguson is the chief instigator, but nobody wants to talk about that).
          Er...both sides probably have degrees of guilt in the existence and maintenance of the racial tension, but how would you possibly know "the black community is the chief instigator" of it?

          I didn't miss it. Without crime rates it's useless, except that it tells us one thing: if they stop blacks twice as often but blacks were only 26% less likely than the whites stopped to not having anything shows that the cops' instincts were actually pretty good.
          Hang on. It says black people who are stopped by police are found with contraband 26% less often than white drivers, not that the total number of stopped black drivers with contraband is 26% less than the total number of stopped white drivers with contraband. If one baseball player has more than twice as many at-bats as another baseball player but gets a hit 26% less often than that other baseball player, you can't say that the second player is actually worse than the first player.


          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Yes, some were. That does NOT mean that Wilson singled out poor little Darren just because he was black.
          I didn't say that Wilson singled anyone out for racist purposes, so...what's your point?

          So, you don't know. It's OK - you can just say that.
          Okay, I don't know the exact percentage. Just like I don't know how it's relevant to anything that I said in this thread, and am still patiently waiting for an explanation.
          Last edited by fm93; 03-06-2015, 06:16 PM.
          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
            It seems to me that non-violent protests in Ferguson were "right for the wrong reasons". That is, it was fine to protest a pattern of civil rights issues in the community, but they were rallying around the wrong case. It made me a bit sick to see all those "hands up, don't shoot" demonstrations. I would have been more supportive of the civil rights issues if people hadn't been focused on that one extremely flawed case.
            This is a fair, level-headed assessment. Would that certain conservative posters would do this.

            I guess you could say the protestors kept sight of the forest but lost sight of a specific tree.
            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
              I didn't say that Wilson anyone out for racist purposes, so...what's your point?
              How bout making a cogent statement first.

              Okay, I don't know the exact percentage. Just like I don't know how it's relevant to anything that I said in this thread, and am still patiently waiting for an explanation.
              Blacks have a HUGE problem within their own community, and are in FAR more danger from other blacks than from white policemen. Pinko commie liberals aren't nearly as concerned about dead blacks unless they can put a racial aspect on it. It's dishonest and hypocritical.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                How bout making a cogent statement first.
                Says the person who wrote "That does NOT mean that Wilson singled out poor little Darren just because he was black."

                Blacks have a HUGE problem within their own community, and are in FAR more danger from other blacks than from white policemen. Pinko commie liberals aren't nearly as concerned about dead blacks unless they can put a racial aspect on it. It's dishonest and hypocritical.
                I agree, but one of the issues being raised is that in the case of black people being killed by other black people, the police system has merely been incompetent in the sense that it hasn't been able to prevent those killings. Whereas in the case of black people experiencing racism by policemen, the police system itself is harming those whom it's supposed to protect. Children are far more likely to be bullied at school by classmates than by teachers, but if a child was being bullied by a teacher, that should also be alarming, because the teacher would be engaged in an utter betrayal of her role.
                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                  Says the person who wrote "That does NOT mean that Wilson singled out poor little Darren just because he was black."
                  It is both true and correct. You're just jealous.

                  I agree, but one of the issues being raised is that in the case of black people being killed by other black people, the police system has merely been incompetent in the sense that it hasn't been able to prevent those killings.
                  Wow! You would blame the POLICE for the black on black crime?

                  Whereas in the case of black people experiencing racism by policemen, the police system itself is harming those whom it's supposed to protect.
                  Brown was NOT killed because he was black.

                  Children are far more likely to be bullied at school by classmates than by teachers, but if a child was being bullied by a teacher, that should also be alarming, because the teacher would be engaged in an utter betrayal of her role.
                  What does THAT have to do with the phoney "hands up" narrative?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                    And I was speaking in the specific context of drug-related crimes.
                    And blacks are higher there too. Look at the national averages in my link.


                    Because fewer white people are from the backgrounds and conditions that tend to breed violent crimes.
                    It doesn't change the fact that blacks commit more crimes on average.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      It is both true and correct. You're just jealous.



                      Wow! You would blame the POLICE for the black on black crime?



                      Brown was NOT killed because he was black.



                      What does THAT have to do with the phoney "hands up" narrative?
                      The point is that most racial groups will have the highest murder and victimization rates internally. It's not the police's "fault" that such things happen, but they're put in the community to help prevent such crimes from occurring, or to at least seek out justice for those who were affected. But in the case of Ferguson, the police force seems to have engaged in racist behavior towards the black residents, and so after Brown was killed and some witnesses mistakenly reported that he was killed while surrendering, the townsfolk were primed to find such claims believable--if the people know that the police have engaged in racism towards them before, they're understandably more likely to believe a report that says a police officer killed someone out of racist motives. The black community consequently believes that they not only have to worry about violence within their own community, but also from the police force that's supposed to protect them. It's perceived not as the system failing them, but utterly betraying them, an additional burden that they have to face. Certain impenetrably arrogant and immature posters who have no apparent grasp of nuance will fail to recognize this, but the community's reasoning shouldn't be hard for others to understand.
                      Last edited by fm93; 03-07-2015, 07:24 AM.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And blacks are higher there too. Look at the national averages in my link.
                        ...But...they aren't. Not if they're actually possessing contraband at a lower rate. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

                        It doesn't change the fact that blacks commit more crimes on average.
                        It does change something, in a sense, because it points out the importance of keeping context in mind, rather than dismissively sitting back and subtly implying that a different racial group than your own is just inherently more likely to commit crimes.

                        Besides, as the report has stated, there are several instances in which these arrests and checks were clearly wrong and unwarranted. You can't wave away a document that lists cases of wrongful police behavior by vaguely asserting "DUR WELL BLACKS JUST COMMIT MORE CRIMES ON AVERAGE THE COPS ARE JUST DOING THEIR JOBS BY ARRESTING INNOCENT PEOPLE WITHOUT WARRANTS AND USING ECWS ON PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T RESISTING AND CIRCULATING RACIST, DISPARAGING EMAILS ABOUT THE PEOPLE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT AND SERVE."
                        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          The point is that most racial groups will have the highest murder and victimization rates internally. It's not the police's "fault" that such things happen, but they're put in the community to help prevent such crimes from occurring, or to at least seek out justice for those who were affected. But in the case of Ferguson, the police force seems to have engaged in racist behavior towards the black residents, and so after Brown was killed and some witnesses mistakenly reported that he was killed while surrendering, the townsfolk were primed to find such claims believable--if the people know that the police have engaged in racism towards them before, they're understandably more likely to believe a report that says a police officer killed someone out of racist motives. The black community consequently believes that they not only have to worry about violence within their own community, but also from the police force that's supposed to protect them. It's perceived not as the system failing them, but utterly betraying them, an additional burden that they have to face. Certain impenetrably arrogant and immature posters who have no apparent grasp of nuance will fail to recognize this, but the community's reasoning shouldn't be hard for others to understand.
                          No. The point is that "Hands up, don't shoot" was a lie that the liberals uncritically used to ignite a national protest. The left perpetuated a lie and now they are trying to shift the goalpost away from their perpetuation of a lie to something else in hopes that no one notices that they got caught with no clothes.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            No. The point is that "Hands up, don't shoot" was a lie
                            I'm really not sure why you and some others are so insistent on calling it a lie, rather than the more likely scenario that some witnesses were simply mistaken. Progress is impossible if both sides keep accusing the other of deliberate conspiracy.
                            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                              I'm really not sure why you and some others are so insistent on calling it a lie, rather than the more likely scenario that some witnesses were simply mistaken. Progress is impossible if both sides keep accusing the other of deliberate conspiracy.
                              Depends on how you define "is"
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Yes, some were. That does NOT mean that Wilson singled out poor little Darren just because he was black.



                                So, you don't know. It's OK - you can just say that.
                                I think you got your names mixed up there, brother. Darren Wilson is white, Michael Brown was black.

                                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                                I'm really not sure why you and some others are so insistent on calling it a lie, rather than the more likely scenario that some witnesses were simply mistaken. Progress is impossible if both sides keep accusing the other of deliberate conspiracy.
                                I'm less concerned that it was a 'lie' (which I believe it was, as too any witnesses contradicted their own statements) than I am concerned with the fact that MSM perpetuated this untruthful narrative to bost their own ratings, not caring how it affects the social dynamics of the community involved or the liberty of the person(s) put on trial (think George Zimmeran, too). It was irresponsible, disgraceful journalism. I'm beginning to think more and more that MSM is the bane of our society's existence.

                                For that matter, does any public version of the DOJ's report include attachments of all relevant documents to back up their interpretations? Because without access to complete copies of reports (CAD calls, incident reports, supplemental reports, notes, witness statements, etc.) then I'm not inclined to put too much stock in their interpretation. It's too easy to look at one incident with an alternate narrative and declare the officer's actions 'racist' when you aren't providing all the details. I'm sure there where racist emails, racist actions, and probably some racist officers at Ferguson PD (else the DOJ wouldn't have taken it this far). But I also doubt it's nearly as bad as they're making it out to be. As long as Eric Holder is involved, I hesitate to believe any 'conclusion' the agency has reached.
                                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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