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What scares the new atheists

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
    That's "atheists" in lower-case and "who" in the nominative case. "Whether" is simply redundant.

    So, you're looking for the opinions of atheists who feel New Atheism (and Atheism+, whatever that might be) is a good or bad thing for their community as a whole, and especially the opinions of the hordes from RationalWiki proudly boasting of this year's $7100 fund-raising prowess. I'd imagine you'd prefer participants willing to parse sense out of your novel grammatical constructions as well.

    Good luck with that.
    Atheism+ is basically secular humanism, but non-atheists need not apply.



    To the OP, I agree with most everyone else that these terms are pretty useless. The good/bad distinction usually ends up as an attitude thing, and as such applies the same way it does everywhere else: bad attitudes harm, good attitudes help. Mostly these movements are irrelevant.
    I'm not here anymore.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
      Atheism+ is basically secular humanism, but non-atheists need not apply.



      To the OP, I agree with most everyone else that these terms are pretty useless. The good/bad distinction usually ends up as an attitude thing, and as such applies the same way it does everywhere else: bad attitudes harm, good attitudes help. Mostly these movements are irrelevant.
      So to the atheists here, the internal battle that is happening right now isn't something that you think is worth paying attention too? I can safely say that you believe these groups are irrelevant to the overall community?
      "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
        Atheism+ is basically secular humanism, but non-atheists need not apply.
        I think you have to be a religion before you can steal an ethos fair and square and call it your own.

        To the OP, I agree with most everyone else that these terms are pretty useless. The good/bad distinction usually ends up as an attitude thing, and as such applies the same way it does everywhere else: bad attitudes harm, good attitudes help. Mostly these movements are irrelevant.
        The one positive thing I can say about atheists like Dawkins and Hitch is that their abrasiveness carved out space for others to speak without the usual backlash.

        And, unlike many of my fellow non-adherents, aside from its perhaps deliberately misleading (clickbait?) headline, I actually liked the article. While I'd agree it never quite arrived at a point, it did manage to create a workmanlike box for discussion, which was its intention as far as I can see. The one thing learned from the interminable "Atheism is ..." threads on the old II board is that atheism, of itself, entails absolutely nothing beyond a lack of belief in gods.

        Atheism does, in my opinion, carve out space for a more rational ethos, but not to the detriment of any rational religion. Religions must, in order to survive in the social matrix, incorporate ethical and moral guidelines that actually work.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Jesse View Post
          So to the atheists here, the internal battle that is happening right now isn't something that you think is worth paying attention too? I can safely say that you believe these groups are irrelevant to the overall community?
          I think describing it as an internal battle incorrectly assumes that there's some unification of atheists. There's nothing 'internal' in the way you portray it. It's not a religion. Atheists have no shared creed. Christians don't just share a belief in the same deity, they share an entire slew of beliefs that include proper behaviors, morals, etc. Atheism doesn't have this. It's a single facet: there are no gods. That's it. This concept seems to be beyond the ability of too many Christians to grasp. I think you're currently guilty of it as well. So yeah, the 'internal battle' is irrelevant simply because it's not an internal battle at all.
          I'm not here anymore.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            I think you have to be a religion before you can steal an ethos fair and square and call it your own.
            I agree, though I think those espousing such ideals may be pushing into the fringes of religion.


            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            The one positive thing I can say about atheists like Dawkins and Hitch is that their abrasiveness carved out space for others to speak without the usual backlash.

            And, unlike many of my fellow non-adherents, aside from its perhaps deliberately misleading (clickbait?) headline, I actually liked the article. While I'd agree it never quite arrived at a point, it did manage to create a workmanlike box for discussion, which was its intention as far as I can see. The one thing learned from the interminable "Atheism is ..." threads on the old II board is that atheism, of itself, entails absolutely nothing beyond a lack of belief in gods.

            Atheism does, in my opinion, carve out space for a more rational ethos, but not to the detriment of any rational religion. Religions must, in order to survive in the social matrix, incorporate ethical and moral guidelines that actually work.
            I completely agree.
            I'm not here anymore.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
              I think describing it as an internal battle incorrectly assumes that there's some unification of atheists. There's nothing 'internal' in the way you portray it. It's not a religion. Atheists have no shared creed. Christians don't just share a belief in the same deity, they share an entire slew of beliefs that include proper behaviors, morals, etc. Atheism doesn't have this. It's a single facet: there are no gods. That's it. This concept seems to be beyond the ability of too many Christians to grasp. I think you're currently guilty of it as well. So yeah, the 'internal battle' is irrelevant simply because it's not an internal battle at all.
              I may be guilty of it. But I can only go by what has been said by other atheists within this "fight". There seems to be an us vs. them mentality that is starting to take shape. If atheists themselves say there is one, then I don't see why I shouldn't believe them. It was the reason why I started this thread. I wanted to know if the atheists here saw what is happening now as a problem or not. It seems from those that have responded, the consensus is it isn't much of one.
              "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                So to the atheists here, the internal battle that is happening right now isn't something that you think is worth paying attention too? I can safely say that you believe these groups are irrelevant to the overall community?
                I consider what those people are doing to be so irrelevant and pay so little attention it, that I literally don't know what you're referring to when you speak of 'the internal battle that is happening right now'.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  I consider what those people are doing to be so irrelevant and pay so little attention it, that I literally don't know what you're referring to when you speak of 'the internal battle that is happening right now'.
                  Okay. I see where you all are coming from now.
                  "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                    The one thing learned from the interminable "Atheism is ..." threads on the old II board is that atheism, of itself, entails absolutely nothing beyond a lack of belief in gods.

                    Atheism does, in my opinion, carve out space for a more rational ethos, but not to the detriment of any rational religion.
                    I wonder if this will be popular atheism's undoing in a way. Whether consciously or not, atheists (like most people) are generally looking for an ideology to embrace, and if they believe atheism truly is nothing but "lack of belief in gods", then they have to fill that space they've carved out with something. Some atheists will insist that, "no, atheism really is nothing more than a lack of belief in gods", and other atheists will insist that once you've made the assertion "gods do not exist", certain other principles necessarily follow.

                    I think maybe its possible for future generations to find the novelty of New Atheism, and Atheism + and whatever other non-theist/anti-theist denominations that might pop up, sort of sterile and passe after awhile. The whole thing will peak and then we'll see young people maybe moving to a non-denominational sort of vague spiritualism. Kids rejecting whatever movement their parents were a part of because its uncool. I can see theists moving towards that sort of vague spiritualism as well. Maybe it'll be a sort of inoffensive Deepak Chopra/Oprah middle zone, or maybe they'll really tick their parents off by being radical in some way. Non-theists may initially cheer at seeing the percentages of denominational theism going down, but then they'll realize that this new group are not exactly non-theists, and be like..."oh".

                    Maybe.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Whether consciously or not, atheists (like most people) are generally looking for an ideology to embrace,
                      Really?
                      Kinda reminds me of the wacko "everyone has a Jesus-shaped hole in their heart" idea.

                      The whole thing will peak and then we'll see young people maybe moving to a non-denominational sort of vague spiritualism... Non-theists may initially cheer at seeing the percentages of denominational theism going down, but then they'll realize that this new group are not exactly non-theists, and be like..."oh".
                      As an atheist I'm not at all concerned by the notion of people having vague spiritual ideas and see no important difference between that and atheism. All that concerns me is whether such things affect their day-to-day behavior and their politics.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Atheists just replace theistic religion with non-theistic religion like liberalism. Despite Starlight's bloviations atheism and liberalism in general are both highly dysgenic traits with their members generally failing to reproduce. The future, like the past, belongs to fundamentalist religions.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Personally, I'm not religious at all, but I don't consider myself to be atheist. I'm not sure what "New Atheism" or "Atheism+" are. Still, it seems to me that Gray's argument is a bit odd, in that he's lumping all religion into one pot.

                          If there was a single, cohesive religion dominating the world, then I could see organized groups of atheists getting worried. However, having a number of different religions, with many different factions within them, and with some of them violently at odds with each other, is not a threat to any kind of atheist outlook. It would probably reinforce such an outlook.

                          It might be a cause for concern that so many people are turning to religion instead of... lack of religion... but this is the same problem for the religions. If one religion is surging, others are not gaining those followers. ISIS, for example, is a growing religious movement, but they hate everybody who isn't ISIS. Anybody who isn't ISIS is worried about their growth.
                          Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                            I may be guilty of it. But I can only go by what has been said by other atheists within this "fight". There seems to be an us vs. them mentality that is starting to take shape. If atheists themselves say there is one, then I don't see why I shouldn't believe them. It was the reason why I started this thread. I wanted to know if the atheists here saw what is happening now as a problem or not. It seems from those that have responded, the consensus is it isn't much of one.
                            There's always an us vs. them mentality. This is how humans function. We naturally tend to congregate in groups of like-minded people. Doing so necessarily entails differentiating the members from the non-members. It's not really surprising or particularly interesting.
                            I'm not here anymore.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              I wonder if this will be popular atheism's undoing in a way. Whether consciously or not, atheists (like most people) are generally looking for an ideology to embrace, and if they believe atheism truly is nothing but "lack of belief in gods", then they have to fill that space they've carved out with something. Some atheists will insist that, "no, atheism really is nothing more than a lack of belief in gods", and other atheists will insist that once you've made the assertion "gods do not exist", certain other principles necessarily follow.

                              I think maybe its possible for future generations to find the novelty of New Atheism, and Atheism + and whatever other non-theist/anti-theist denominations that might pop up, sort of sterile and passe after awhile. The whole thing will peak and then we'll see young people maybe moving to a non-denominational sort of vague spiritualism. Kids rejecting whatever movement their parents were a part of because its uncool. I can see theists moving towards that sort of vague spiritualism as well. Maybe it'll be a sort of inoffensive Deepak Chopra/Oprah middle zone, or maybe they'll really tick their parents off by being radical in some way. Non-theists may initially cheer at seeing the percentages of denominational theism going down, but then they'll realize that this new group are not exactly non-theists, and be like..."oh".

                              Maybe.
                              This is surprising to me, in that this trend has already been happening. Most people don't end up in strict atheism. Those that turn away from traditional religions are predominantly moving towards the vague spiritualism that you mention. Some of them may not even outright reject the religions of their upbringing so much as lose interest. The reality is that there are atheists that cheer when others turn away, but the majority of us non-theists (including atheists) generally don't care one way or another.
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                                So yeah, the 'internal battle' is irrelevant simply because it's not an internal battle at all.
                                *nod*

                                Comment

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