Youth Suicide And Religion

[JonathanL]

They hold weight in that they are more likely to be realized. They do not hold weight in that they are more likely to be true.

God had the opinion that something we now call the universe should come into being and it did. I'd say that when someone's opinion on something is so strong that they're actually able to actualize it's existence from nothingness you'd better take their opinion seriously.


Besides, when the creator of the universe tells you that a certain action is wrong you'd be wise to listen. As far as I'm concerned the one who created the playground also gets to set the rules for it.

[seer]

What do you mean by that exactly seer? Do you mean hope in the way of a pay off for good behavior?


Again I'll ask, hope for what seer? It seems to me that hope for you has only one meaning, eternal life.


Yes, there are all kinds of studies that say feeling alone in the world is not good for ones health.

Again Jim, read my recent link to Psychology Today. There are aspects to religion that can not be duplicated by atheism, that are conducive to well being:

Religion can offer a particularly potent and resilient sense of self-worth because God's love is often (but not always) perceived as non-contingent. In other words, many religious traditions assert that God, like a good parent, loves and values us no matter what we do. Many sources of self-esteem (e.g., beauty, success, popularity) are not so reliable.

Religion provides protection from existential threats

As intellectual animals, we humans are uniquely able to ask existential questions. Where did we come from? Why are we here? Is there any meaning to our existence? What happens to us when we die? Many scholars think that the capacity to ask such questions is why religion exists at all. For many, it is not satisfying to accept the possibility that human existence is by chance, and people are no more significant or enduring than any other organism. Religion offers feelings of existential meaning, purpose, and transcendence. Research supports this assertion as increased religiosity is associated with increased feelings of meaning and decreased existential anxieties.

[Psychic Missile]

God had the opinion that something we now call the universe should come into being and it did. I'd say that when someone's opinion on something is so strong that they're actually able to actualize it's existence from nothingness you'd better take their opinion seriously.


Besides, when the creator of the universe tells you that a certain action is wrong you'd be wise to listen. As far as I'm concerned the one who created the playground also gets to set the rules for it.

See reply #42.

[JimL]

Again Jim, read my recent link to Psychology Today. There are aspects to religion that can not be duplicated by atheism, that are conducive to well being:

Can you name one of these religions whose God loves and values fallible human beings no matter what they do, like a good parent would love, value and treat their child? People may believe that about their God, and I'm sure that such belief would be good for their psyche, but that is not the way in which God is actually portrayed. The Christian God for instance, is more like Hitler or Stalin who sees all men as evil and will cook them in an oven if by their own reasoning they do not believe in him, or that he even he exists. Feeling loved and valued no matter what in this life, in this world, is what is of importance here, not that the source of that love is God. Many people have existential anxieties, both religious and the non religious and existential anxieties, I think, is what you are really driving at here. We all live with that. Nobody wants to die!

[JonathanL]

See reply #42.

Still doesn't answer the point that the creator of the universe also gets to set the rules for that universe, whether or not you acknowledge those rules as objective or not.

[Psychic Missile]

Still doesn't answer the point that the creator of the universe also gets to set the rules for that universe, whether or not you acknowledge those rules as objective or not.

I don't think you understand my position. If God's opinion is made into a rule for the universe, it is objective. If it is not, it's not objective.

[JonathanL]

I don't think you understand my position. If God's opinion is made into a rule for the universe, it is objective. If it is not, it's not objective.

What do you mean by the phrase, "made into a rule for the universe"?

[JimL]

What do you mean by the phrase, "made into a rule for the universe"?

I think what he means is that if the laws of the universe can be changed then they are not really objective, they are subject to the whims of a dictator. Murder, rape, pillaging etc etc, would not be objectively wrong in and of themselves, they could be either good or evil depending upon how God feels at the time.

[seer]

Can you name one of these religions whose God loves and values fallible human beings no matter what they do, like a good parent would love, value and treat their child? People may believe that about their God, and I'm sure that such belief would be good for their psyche, but that is not the way in which God is actually portrayed. The Christian God for instance, is more like Hitler or Stalin who sees all men as evil and will cook them in an oven if by their own reasoning they do not believe in him, or that he even he exists. Feeling loved and valued no matter what in this life, in this world, is what is of importance here, not that the source of that love is God. Many people have existential anxieties, both religious and the non religious and existential anxieties, I think, is what you are really driving at here. We all live with that. Nobody wants to die!

Jim, I just quoted Psychology Today. There are in fact aspects to religion that can not be duplicated by atheism, that are conducive to well being.

[Psychic Missile]

What do you mean by the phrase, "made into a rule for the universe"?

Made a part of the universe like physical properties or chemical reactions. Something that is true without an observer.

[JonathanL]

Made a part of the universe like physical properties or chemical reactions. Something that is true without an observer.

In other words you would not accept moral precepts as objective unless they cease to be moral precepts and became physical laws instead. I.e, instead of murder being morally wrong the universe would simply be ordered in such a way that killing becomes impossible. Is that what you are saying?

[Psychic Missile]

In other words you would not accept moral precepts as objective unless they cease to be moral precepts and became physical laws instead. I.e, instead of murder being morally wrong the universe would simply be ordered in such a way that killing becomes impossible. Is that what you are saying?

I don't think it's possible to have objective moral precepts. I think "objective morality" is a meaningless phrase. To address your point and tying it back to the topic: In a secular worldview, humans are not more valuable than other animals. If all humans, and humans alone, were born with souls, then humans can be said to be more valuable in terms of privilege.

[JonathanL]

I don't think it's possible to have objective moral precepts. I think "objective morality" is a meaningless phrase.

Then so is the phrase "subjective morality". I think of morality simply as the way God intended for us humans to interact with and live in relationship with Him, other humans and creation. Anything that hinders that intention is evil, while anything that brings His intentions into realization is good. Whether or not it is subjective or objective is completely irrelevant to me.

To address your point and tying it back to the topic: In a secular worldview, humans are not more valuable than other animals. If all humans, and humans alone, were born with souls, then humans can be said to be more valuable in terms of privilege.

I of course do not hold to a secular worldview. Humans are distinct from animals by the fact that they are persons capable of living in relationship with one another and God.

[Psychic Missile]

Then so is the phrase "subjective morality". I think of morality simply as the way God intended for us humans to interact with and live in relationship with Him, other humans and creation. Anything that hinders that intention is evil, while anything that brings His intentions into realization is good. Whether or not it is subjective or objective is completely irrelevant to me.

I think the phrase "subjective morality" is redundant. All morality is necessarily subjective.

I of course do not hold to a secular worldview. Humans are distinct from animals by the fact that they are persons capable of living in relationship with one another and God.

So an intelligent non-human animal cannot have a relationship with God? What's stopping them?

[Adrift]

I think the phrase "subjective morality" is redundant. All morality is necessarily subjective.

You are aware that there are plenty of non-theists (taking after Sam Harris, for instance) who would not agree with that claim, correct?