Youth Suicide And Religion

[seer]

I don't think so. Imagine an overgod who is even more powerful than the Biblical God. If that overgod though something was valuable and God thought something was not valuable, what is the objective truth? I think the objective truth would be whether that value would exist if either or both gods were to will themselves out of existence.

No Psychic, it doesn't change the fact that God's law by definition would be objective to humankind. It would exist independently of mankind.

[seer]

The way I read seer, his problem with subjective moral values, is simply that they are not objective and therefore they have no, what he would call, inherent value. But the value of morals, afaics, has nothing to do with whether they are objective or subjective, but rather with whether or not they are advantageous to human society and by extension to each individual within that society. For seer, such social advantage has no value at all if the laws sustaining it can be circumvented by individuals for their own personal benefit without getting caught or ultimately punished. Morality for seer has to do with the individual alone, whatever is in his own best interests with the ultimate goal of his good behavior being his attainment of eternal life, but in truth morality has to do with the good of human society and the ultimate attainment of peace on earth.

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Good luck with that peace on earth thing Jim.

[seer]

I agree, if something is to be objectively true, then it can't be dependent upon the opinon anything else, including the contradictory opinions of a God. Murder for instance can't be objectively evil according to the supposed objective nature of God, if God both condones and commits murder. Seers argument seems to be that objective truth is dependent upon the subjective opinion of a God, which is logically absurd.

Nonsense Jim. Even if God's opinion is subjective to Him, it still exists independently to humankind. And therefore is objective to man. Nothing illogical about that.

[seer]

When you speak of hope and purpose, all you are really talking about is the hope and attainment of an afterlife. Religion does give you that, but that is not necessarily the cause of, or the cure for, the depression that people succumb to in this life. Religious involvment can be protective against this, but so can any kind of social community where one has a feeling of belonging and acceptance. It has nothing to do with the particular beliefs that the group holds to, which seems to be what you are implying.

Really Jim, then show me a study where secular community involvement had such profound reduction in the suicide rate. The fact is the end of atheism is always death. You offer nothing but death.

[Adrift]

Nonsense Jim. Even if God's opinion is subjective to Him, it still exists independently to humankind. And therefore is objective to man. Nothing illogical about that.

Subjectivity is a really strange way of talking about God's mind. I mean, when you are unique, and the creator and maintainer of time, matter, energy, the universe and everything in it, the omniscient and omnipresent arbiter of truth, how can you be sait to be subjective? We can't actualize any material objects or series of events through just the pure willpower of our minds, but God doesn't have a problem making his thoughts into objective realities. Subjectivity has to do with one's limited perceptions and social interactions, that isn't at all an issue with a divine being who knows everything, can be anywhere, knows all possible outcomes, and who has no peer.

[JimL]

Really Jim, then show me a study where secular community involvement had such profound reduction in the suicide rate. The fact is the end of atheism is always death. You offer nothing but death.

You supplied that study yourself seer. Family togetherness was even more effective in battling depression and suicide than was religion. I't isn't the religion, its beliefs, that is of the utmost importance in the study, it is the communal aspect that the religion affords its members. And yes, you are correct, atheism, the belief that we are a temporal part of an eternal universe and not created by an external source doesn't offer eternal life. Religions, all religions that believe in creation ex-nihilo, whether true or not, offer this, but they have no evidence by which to do so.

[seer]

Subjectivity is a really strange way of talking about God's mind. I mean, when you are unique, and the creator and maintainer of time, matter, energy, the universe and everything in it, the omniscient and omnipresent arbiter of truth, how can you be sait to be subjective? We can't actualize any material objects or series of events through just the pure willpower of our minds, but God doesn't have a problem making his thoughts into objective realities. Subjectivity has to do with one's limited perceptions and social interactions, that isn't at all an issue with a divine being who knows everything, can be anywhere, knows all possible outcomes, and who has no peer.

Yes this is true. That is why I said: Even if God's opinion is subjective to Him....

[seer]

You supplied that study yourself seer. Family togetherness was even more effective in battling depression and suicide than was religion. I't isn't the religion, its beliefs, that is of the utmost importance in the study, it is the communal aspect that the religion affords its members. And yes, you are correct, atheism, the belief that we are a temporal part of an eternal universe and not created by an external source doesn't offer eternal life. Religions, all religions that believe in creation ex-nihilo, whether true or not, offer this, but they have no evidence by which to do so.

And again Jim, there is zero hope in atheism, but there is in religion. And if you don't think that hope or hopelessness color the picture then you are just putting your head in the sand. The fact is Jim that there are all kinds of studies that show that religion is just generally better for your well being.

[Adrift]

Yes this is true. That is why I said: Even if God's opinion is subjective to Him....

Just to be clear, I wasn't actually addressing you specifically, just the concept in general.

[seer]

Just to be clear, I wasn't actually addressing you specifically, just the concept in general.

Oh, OK...

[seer]

Is religion good for your health? Psychology Today:

Religion is a source of hope and optimism

Research in psychology indicates that positive attitudes are good for our health. For example, people who are optimistic about their chances of recovery from major diseases tend to better adhere to medical treatment plans, be less bothered by disease symptoms, and have better recovery rates. For many people, religion is a major source of hope and optimism.

Religion promotes feelings of belongingness

Humans are social animals and meeting belongingness needs is good for our psychological and physical health. Despite the assertion by many American Christian sects that religion is about a personal relationship between an individual and God (or Jesus), religion has always been and continues to be largely a social activity. For example, even in the United States, the more religious one claims to be, the more likely he or she is to attend church services (a group activity).

Religion can boost self-esteem

Like optimism, self-esteem has been shown to be a predictor of good physical health. We gain self-esteem from feeling as if we are people of value. Religion can offer a particularly potent and resilient sense of self-worth because God's love is often (but not always) perceived as non-contingent. In other words, many religious traditions assert that God, like a good parent, loves and values us no matter what we do. Many sources of self-esteem (e.g., beauty, success, popularity) are not so reliable.

Religion provides protection from existential threats

As intellectual animals, we humans are uniquely able to ask existential questions. Where did we come from? Why are we here? Is there any meaning to our existence? What happens to us when we die? Many scholars think that the capacity to ask such questions is why religion exists at all. For many, it is not satisfying to accept the possibility that human existence is by chance, and people are no more significant or enduring than any other organism. Religion offers feelings of existential meaning, purpose, and transcendence. Research supports this assertion as increased religiosity is associated with increased feelings of meaning and decreased existential anxieties.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...od-your-health

[Psychic Missile]

No Psychic, it doesn't change the fact that God's law by definition would be objective to humankind. It would exist independently of mankind.

There is a difference between what God believes and what God makes so. For example, God could want human beings to be Christian, but he doesn't make it so. Likewise, God could believe humans have objective value, but they wouldn't unless he made it so.

[JimL]

And again Jim, there is zero hope in atheism, but there is in religion.

What do you mean by that exactly seer? Do you mean hope in the way of a pay off for good behavior?

And if you don't think that hope or hopelessness color the picture then you are just putting your head in the sand.

Again I'll ask, hope for what seer? It seems to me that hope for you has only one meaning, eternal life.

The fact is Jim that there are all kinds of studies that show that religion is just generally better for your well being.

Yes, there are all kinds of studies that say feeling alone in the world is not good for ones health.

[Darth Executor]

Just because someone is powerful doesn't mean their opinions hold more weight. To address your bigger problem, a dictate and an opinion are categorically different.

Of course it does. For example, our opinion on whether we should eat chicken holds more weight than the opinion of the chicken because there is little obstruction to manifesting that will.

Insects cannot be said to truly value something, but they find different sources of food worth more or less because of the energy provided.

Sounds like a pointless semantic distinction. Of course insects can be said to "truly value" something.

[Psychic Missile]

Of course it does. For example, our opinion on whether we should eat chicken holds more weight than the opinion of the chicken because there is little obstruction to manifesting that will.

They hold weight in that they are more likely to be realized. They do not hold weight in that they are more likely to be true.

Sounds like a pointless semantic distinction. Of course insects can be said to "truly value" something.

They cannot consciously assign value.