Youth Suicide And Religion

[Psychic Missile]

No Homer, I'm pointing out why religious belief is inherently superior to atheism when it comes to hope and purpose.

I think you're right, but it depends upon the religion. I also think a religion with an immortal afterlife trivializes mortal life.

[seer]

I also think a religion with an immortal afterlife trivializes mortal life.

That is just silly. Mortal life is trivial if there is no God or afterlife since we would not have any more inherent worth than a common house fly - and you know what we do to house flies.

[Psychic Missile]

That is just silly. Mortal life is trivial if there is no God or afterlife since we would not have any more inherent worth than a common house fly - and you know what we do to house flies.

There is no direct connection between inherent worth and subjective value. People value objectively worthless things all the time. Why not extend that to one's life?

[seer]

There is no direct connection between inherent worth and subjective value. People value objectively worthless things all the time. Why not extend that to one's life?

Let's say that you value your life and the murderer doesn't. Who is objectively correct? You certainly can subjectively value your life, but that does not mean that human beings have inherent worth. If on the other hand God created us in His image, and loves us, then our worth is tied to something objective (objective to humankind) transcendent, eternal and immutable.

[Psychic Missile]

Let's say that you value your life and the murderer doesn't. Who is objectively correct? You certainly can subjectively value your life, but that does not mean that human beings have inherent worth.

I agree.

If on the other hand God created us in His image, and loves us, then our worth is tied to something objective (objective to humankind) transcendent, eternal and immutable.

I wouldn't call someone's opinion objective, even if that someone is all-powerful.

[seer]

I wouldn't call someone's opinion objective, even if that someone is all-powerful.

It is objective to humankind.

[Darth Executor]

I wouldn't call someone's opinion objective, even if that someone is all-powerful.

The "opinion" of someone who can manifest their will without obstruction is objective. The bigger problem is, if anything, calling it opinion. God doesn't have opinions, He has dictates.

There is no direct connection between inherent worth and subjective value. People value objectively worthless things all the time. Why not extend that to one's life?

Worth is determined by whether someone values something. In the absence of God's dictates inherent worth is an oxymoron.

[JimL]

Of course it does. Sure community is part of it but it is religious involvement that is key:

Really seer? So it is your contention that it is not the sense of community that religion provides one, but the religious beliefs themselves that are psychologically beneficial? Which religions and their beliefs would those be seer?

Even among those who had experienced an episode of depressive symptoms (two or more weeks of feeling sad or hopeless to the point where it interfered with their usual activities) in the previous year (20.8% of the sample), religious involvement was still protective (OR=0.6).

Religious involvment, thats community involvment seer.

[seer]

Really seer? So it is your contention that it is not the sense of community that religion provides one, but the religious beliefs themselves that are psychologically beneficial? Which religions and their beliefs would those be seer?

No Jim, it is both religion and community. The fact if Jim, religion can offer a hope and purpose that atheism just can't. It can offer a view of human worth not found in secularism.

Religious involvment, thats community involvment seer.

Yes - religious community.

[JimL]

No Jim, it is both religion and community. The fact if Jim, religion can offer a hope and purpose that atheism just can't. It can offer a view of human worth not found in secularism.

When you speak of hope and purpose, all you are really talking about is the hope and attainment of an afterlife. Religion does give you that, but that is not necessarily the cause of, or the cure for, the depression that people succumb to in this life. Religious involvment can be protective against this, but so can any kind of social community where one has a feeling of belonging and acceptance. It has nothing to do with the particular beliefs that the group holds to, which seems to be what you are implying.

Yes - religious community.

No seer, that is not what the study implies. Religion is one kind of community, but as the study implies the benificial aspects of community are not solely dependent on religious beliefs.

[Psychic Missile]

It is objective to humankind.

I don't think so. Imagine an overgod who is even more powerful than the Biblical God. If that overgod though something was valuable and God thought something was not valuable, what is the objective truth? I think the objective truth would be whether that value would exist if either or both gods were to will themselves out of existence.

[Psychic Missile]

The "opinion" of someone who can manifest their will without obstruction is objective. The bigger problem is, if anything, calling it opinion. God doesn't have opinions, He has dictates.

Just because someone is powerful doesn't mean their opinions hold more weight. To address your bigger problem, a dictate and an opinion are categorically different.

Worth is determined by whether someone values something. In the absence of God's dictates inherent worth is an oxymoron.

Insects cannot be said to truly value something, but they find different sources of food worth more or less because of the energy provided.

[JimL]

I don't think so. Imagine an overgod who is even more powerful than the Biblical God. If that overgod though something was valuable and God thought something was not valuable, what is the objective truth? I think the objective truth would be whether that value would exist if either or both gods were to will themselves out of existence.

I agree, if something is to be objectively true, then it can't be dependent upon the opinon anything else, including the contradictory opinions of a God. Murder for instance can't be objectively evil according to the supposed objective nature of God, if God both condones and commits murder. Seers argument seems to be that objective truth is dependent upon the subjective opinion of a God, which is logically absurd.

[Psychic Missile]

I agree, if something is to be objectively true, then it can't be dependent upon the opinon anything else, including the contradictory opinions of a God. Murder for instance can't be objectively evil according to the supposed objective nature of God, if God both condones and commits murder. Seers argument seems to be that objective truth is dependent upon the subjective opinion of a God, which is logically absurd.

I don't even understand the base of the argument. What's wrong with subjective value?

[JimL]

I don't even understand the base of the argument. What's wrong with subjective value?

The way I read seer, his problem with subjective moral values, is simply that they are not objective and therefore they have no, what he would call, inherent value. But the value of morals, afaics, has nothing to do with whether they are objective or subjective, but rather with whether or not they are advantageous to human society and by extension to each individual within that society. For seer, such social advantage has no value at all if the laws sustaining it can be circumvented by individuals for their own personal benefit without getting caught or ultimately punished. Morality for seer has to do with the individual alone, whatever is in his own best interests with the ultimate goal of his good behavior being his attainment of eternal life, but in truth morality has to do with the good of human society and the ultimate attainment of peace on earth.