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Turns out Obama's "evolution" was as much of a lie as the theory is...

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  • Turns out Obama's "evolution" was as much of a lie as the theory is...

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...rriage/385333/

    In his new book, former Obama strategist David Axelrod says candidate Obama took that position in 2008 at the behest of his political advisers. “Opposition to gay marriage was particularly strong in the black church, and as he ran for higher office, he grudgingly accepted the counsel of more pragmatic folks like me, and modified his position to support civil unions rather than marriage, which he would term a ‘sacred union.’”
    Obama concealed his position on same-sex marriage in order to pursue his political ambitions. The fact that the country seems to have moved in a direction that makes the revelation of this lie politically inconsequential is interesting but not quite what I'd like to explore. I'd rather hear from those who voted for Obama in 2008. Back in 2008, did you think he was lying? If not, how did you feel about his position then? How did you feel about his "evolution" in the 2012 election when you heard about it? Did you find it credible? How do you feel about this most recent revelation?

    Those whose contribution to the discussion would no more substantial or constructive than the title of the thread or who have ever started a civics thread with a title that even approaches this one in sheer sensationalism are asked not to post here. You know exactly who you are.
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...rriage/385333/



    Obama concealed his position on same-sex marriage in order to pursue his political ambitions. The fact that the country seems to have moved in a direction that makes the revelation of this lie politically inconsequential is interesting but not quite what I'd like to explore. I'd rather hear from those who voted for Obama in 2008. Back in 2008, did you think he was lying? If not, how did you feel about his position then? How did you feel about his "evolution" in the 2012 election when you heard about it? Did you find it credible? How do you feel about this most recent revelation?

    Those whose contribution to the discussion would no more substantial or constructive than the title of the thread or who have ever started a civics thread with a title that even approaches this one in sheer sensationalism are asked not to post here. You know exactly who you are.
    I thought it was probable that he supported marriage for same-sex couples in 2008. I didn't know whether he didn't come out and say that for political reasons or because he truly thought the idea to be non-viable at that time but I suspected the former.

    Politicians shouldn't lie about their positions on issues, even if those issues are likely to resolve themselves outside of the president's control in the future. It degrades the process. That said, this is 100% "dog bites man" — just about as routine a revelation as you get in politics. It's wrong and it's ubiquitous.

    Nice title, too :-D

    —Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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    • #3
      I'm shocked, shocked, that Barack Obama would lie for political gain.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        I'm shocked, shocked, that Barack Obama would lie for political gain.
        I haven't heard of a politician that wouldn't.
        I'm not here anymore.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
          I haven't heard of a politician that wouldn't.
          Some seem to do it more than others.
          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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          • #6
            I like how the implication from the thread title is that Obama didn't lie.

            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
            I'd rather hear from those who voted for Obama in 2008. Back in 2008, did you think he was lying? If not, how did you feel about his position then? How did you feel about his "evolution" in the 2012 election when you heard about it? Did you find it credible? How do you feel about this most recent revelation?
            It did stand out to me as strange. I didn't think he was lying; I thought he was more of a moderate. I didn't care about his position because I knew gay marriage was going to be legalized regardless. I take anything Obama says with a grain of salt ever since his war and NSA policies were revealed.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I'm shocked, shocked, that Barack Obama would lie for political gain.
              Today I asked a bunch of teenie-tweeny college kids if they'd ever seen Casablanca. I'm chagrined, chagrined, that these kids would have no idea what you're on about, piglet.

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              • #8
                Speaking from a liberal perspective, this really should be an unpardonable sin. Standing up for and supporting the cause of an oppressed minority group that has been fighting tooth and nail for decades against right-wing bigots for marriage equality could have put a damper on his political aspirations, so he basically gave these people the middle finger in order to avoid losing the votes of some intolerant homophobes.
                Last edited by CMD; 02-10-2015, 10:52 PM.

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                • #9
                  I thought it was fairly obvious that his position was "in flux" and inevitably going to change, especially because he was blatantly hinting at it. He said his position was "evolving", and a few months before Biden let the cat out of the bag, there was one speech where somebody yelled "Marriage!" and Obama said "I heard that".
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                    I like how the implication from the thread title is that Obama didn't lie.
                    It took me a little while to come up with a sufficiently satirical title, but I'm generally pleased with the result

                    It did stand out to me as strange. I didn't think he was lying; I thought he was more of a moderate. I didn't care about his position because I knew gay marriage was going to be legalized regardless. I take anything Obama says with a grain of salt ever since his war and NSA policies were revealed.
                    I wouldn't be surprised if the long-term result of all this is reduced voter participation among those young voters who initially showed up to vote for him and may well be disillusioned as a result of how it turned out; the idealism that attracted people to him turned out to be a sham. An interesting counterpoint to that is Ron Paul, who had a tremendous following among the young because he wasn't politically calculating: he was honest and insightful, if a bit crazy.
                    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                      It took me a little while to come up with a sufficiently satirical title, but I'm generally pleased with the result



                      I wouldn't be surprised if the long-term result of all this is reduced voter participation among those young voters who initially showed up to vote for him and may well be disillusioned as a result of how it turned out; the idealism that attracted people to him turned out to be a sham. An interesting counterpoint to that is Ron Paul, who had a tremendous following among the young because he wasn't politically calculating: he was honest and insightful, if a bit crazy.
                      Young voters are either not going to remember this or, more likely, not going to care. It's just not a significant enough lie to dispirit 'em.

                      Back in 2008, some old history professors were circulating an Obama banner graphic with the words "Obama '08: Get ready to be disappointed by someone new" — we'll never tire of finding new heroes, even as the old ones get a bit tarnished.
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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                      • #12
                        It's worth noting that Bush Jr & Cheney equally cynically pretended to be against same-sex marriage for political gain. Cheney's lesbian daughter wasn't at all happy with that move. Bush Snr has subsequently acted as a witness at a same-sex wedding.

                        On the whole, I do think Obama has been too-ready to compromise on many issues and too quick to abandon his ideals and follow what his advisors recommend on grounds of political expediency.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                          I wouldn't be surprised if the long-term result of all this is reduced voter participation among those young voters who initially showed up to vote for him and may well be disillusioned as a result of how it turned out; the idealism that attracted people to him turned out to be a sham. An interesting counterpoint to that is Ron Paul, who had a tremendous following among the young because he wasn't politically calculating: he was honest and insightful, if a bit crazy.
                          I think that's a reasonable prediction. Obama was able to bring in black and youth votes. Hilary can bring in woman votes, but I can't see her getting young people excited.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                            I think that's a reasonable prediction. Obama was able to bring in black and youth votes. Hilary can bring in woman votes, but I can't see her getting young people excited.
                            None of which will stop the Republicans from messing up royally. Take for instance the quote by Renee Elmers, the republican congresswoman who played a major role in stopping a vote on a pro-life bill on the say of the March for Life: http://www.nationaljournal.com/congr...=walkingheader

                            The first vote we take, or the second vote, or the fifth vote, shouldn't be on an issue where we know that millennials—social issues just aren't as important [to them].
                            If she had so much as looked outside on the day of the March for Life, she would have seen tens, if not hundreds of thousands of high school and college students who came to D.C. by the car- and bus-load to demonstrate their commitment to the pro-life cause-- to suggest that putting a high priority on pro-life legislation is going to alienate the self-proclaimed "pro-life generation" is astonishingly tone-deaf even for an established politician.

                            So, yeah, take comfort in the fact that the Right is messing up their potential to bring in young voters just as badly as the Left has.
                            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                              If she had so much as looked outside on the day of the March for Life, she would have seen tens, if not hundreds of thousands of high school and college students who came to D.C. by the car- and bus-load to demonstrate their commitment to the pro-life cause-- to suggest that putting a high priority on pro-life legislation is going to alienate the self-proclaimed "pro-life generation" is astonishingly tone-deaf even for an established politician.
                              Maybe, unlike you, she took a peek outside the echo chamber and read the polls. Or maybe she read about some of these virulent anti-abortion Republicans who forced their mistresses to get abortions so that their wives wouldn't figure out what was going on. Abortion is a terrible thing for other people to do, but MY situation now, well, it's a long story but, well, you know...

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