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German court rules synagogue firebombing is "act of protest", not anti-Semitism

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  • German court rules synagogue firebombing is "act of protest", not anti-Semitism

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...f-protest.html

    This may actually play into the controversy over hate speech laws. I know some people here have opposed them as criminalizing specific parts of speech; however, I have no problems with considering such actions as church or synagogue firebombings as terrorism as they are intended to intimidate (unlike, say, burning it down for insurance fraud).

    Either way, this is a ridiculous ruling.

    ETA: The firebombing was apparently in protest of Israel's foreign policy.
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 02-10-2015, 01:59 PM.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    History repeats itself.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Either way, this is a ridiculous ruling.
      I don't think there's enough information to say that. Your source is the Daily Beast. Their source is The Jewish Press. There is important information missing from these accounts.

      ETA: The firebombing was apparently in protest of Israel's foreign policy.
      While I can't find what I'd call reliable information on this, there's considerably more than what you've added to take into account. The attack, by German Palestinians, coincided with the latest six-week war in the occupied territories.

      Wuppertal synagogue arsonists stand trial in Germany
      While the attack didn't cause any damage, it was indicative of growing anti-Semitism during the summer's six-week war in Gaza, which killed over 2,000 Palestinians and less than 70 Israelis and all but destroyed vast chunks of Gaza's infrastructure. During the war, which lasted until September, there was a wave of pro-Palestinian protests in Germany. Rights watchdog Amnesty International released multiple reports condemning Israel's conduct in the war, and accusing it of war crimes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
        I don't think there's enough information to say that. Your source is the Daily Beast. Their source is The Jewish Press. There is important information missing from these accounts.



        While I can't find what I'd call reliable information on this, there's considerably more than what you've added to take into account. The attack, by German Palestinians, coincided with the latest six-week war in the occupied territories.

        Wuppertal synagogue arsonists stand trial in Germany
        While the attack didn't cause any damage, it was indicative of growing anti-Semitism during the summer's six-week war in Gaza, which killed over 2,000 Palestinians and less than 70 Israelis and all but destroyed vast chunks of Gaza's infrastructure. During the war, which lasted until September, there was a wave of pro-Palestinian protests in Germany. Rights watchdog Amnesty International released multiple reports condemning Israel's conduct in the war, and accusing it of war crimes.
        That is the context I had in mind; I didn't feel the need to elaborate because I didn't see why it mattered; even if one grants the Israeli government the responsibility for war crimes, I don't at all see how it is a mitigating factor for a violent action aimed against any group of civilians, much less a historically marginalized group living in a country half a continent away from the country in question.

        I've always considered the Daily Beast to be generally reliable FWIW; knowing they're not known for long form journalism or anything like that.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...f-protest.html

          This may actually play into the controversy over hate speech laws. I know some people here have opposed them as criminalizing specific parts of speech; however, I have no problems with considering such actions as church or synagogue firebombings as terrorism as they are intended to intimidate (unlike, say, burning it down for insurance fraud).

          Either way, this is a ridiculous ruling.

          ETA: The firebombing was apparently in protest of Israel's foreign policy.
          I see this as retaliation, not intimidation.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            I see this as retaliation, not intimidation.
            But intimidation certainly is one result.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              History repeats itself.
              Not really. These were Palestinians, not ethnic Germans. Europe's Muslim communities (and Palestinians are largely muslim) tend to integrate into the surrounding culture as little as possible.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                But intimidation certainly is one result.
                And I don't think that the attackers would be unhappy with that aspect of the result. I don't see it as their primary motive, however.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  And I don't think that the attackers would be unhappy with that aspect of the result. I don't see it as their primary motive, however.
                  I didn't say it had to be; I was just trying to defend my general belief that such terrorism-motivated actions should be prosecuted more severely than other crimes (contra those who would decry this as examples of hate speech legislation).
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    I didn't say it had to be; I was just trying to defend my general belief that such terrorism-motivated actions should be prosecuted more severely than other crimes (contra those who would decry this as examples of hate speech legislation).
                    Not hate speech, but this is hate crime legislation.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Not really. These were Palestinians, not ethnic Germans. Europe's Muslim communities (and Palestinians are largely muslim) tend to integrate into the surrounding culture as little as possible.
                      I was referring mostly to the verdict, not the attempted firebombing, but either way, Jewish antisemitism is on the rise, its just hidden behind the mantle of anti-Zionism.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I was referring mostly to the verdict, not the attempted firebombing, but either way, Jewish antisemitism is on the rise, its just hidden behind the mantle of anti-Zionism.
                        Actually the problem Muslim populations in Europe are quite open about their anti-semitism.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          I was referring mostly to the verdict, not the attempted firebombing, but either way, Jewish antisemitism is on the rise, its just hidden behind the mantle of anti-Zionism.
                          That may be true, but OTOH, so often any criticism of Israeli government actions is dismissed as anti-Semitism. It's a tricky minefield to navigate.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            That is the context I had in mind; I didn't feel the need to elaborate because I didn't see why it mattered; even if one grants the Israeli government the responsibility for war crimes, I don't at all see how it is a mitigating factor for a violent action aimed against any group of civilians, much less a historically marginalized group living in a country half a continent away from the country in question.
                            If you're actually unsure whether Israel was responsible for war crimes during that campaign, you could try asking the ICC.

                            What are war crimes?
                            “War crimes” include grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict and in conflicts "not of an international character" listed in the Rome Statute, when they are committed as part of a plan or policy or on a large scale. These prohibited acts include:
                            • murder;
                            • mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
                            • taking of hostages;
                            • intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population;
                            • intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historical monuments or hospitals;
                            • pillaging;
                            • rape, sexual slavery, forced pregnancy or any other form of sexual violence;
                            • conscripting or enlisting children under the age of 15 years into armed forces or groups or using them to participate actively in hostilities.

                            Israel was openly bombing hospitals in Gaza at the time.

                            I've always considered the Daily Beast to be generally reliable FWIW; knowing they're not known for long form journalism or anything like that.
                            I haven't read much at all from the Daily Beast, but this story is eminently shreddable. There's no original reporting at all, and little enough even in the piece they're referencing. In neither piece are the judge or attackers being lambasted named. The second piece references without linking a piece from the Jerusalem Post. There is one additional linked reference in the Daily Beast, and that's to the Daily Fail. The bulk is straight-up polemic. There is no reference to the contemporary conflict in Gaza at the time, and repeated references to non-contemporary attacks against Jews wholly unrelated to either this judge or these attempted arsonists. The "dark-skinned" reference to the attackers is blatantly racist.

                            I believe you should reconsider your 'generally reliable" characterization of the Daily Beast in defense of this report.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                              The "dark-skinned" reference to the attackers is blatantly racist.
                              Just a reminder of how much of a reprehensible scumbag jesse is. Here's the reference:

                              Imagine the following scenario.

                              A group of skinheads torch a black church somewhere in the Deep South. Upon being apprehended by the police, they cite the injustices that Zimbabwean dictator Robert Mugabe has visited upon the white farmers of his country as justification for their arson. Mugabe is black, he rules on behalf of “the black race,” and therefore black people everywhere must be made to feel responsible for his crimes.

                              Anyone making such a ridiculous argument would rightly be labeled a racist. But change the victims from black people to Jews, and the perpetrators from pale neo-Nazis to dark-skinned Muslims, and a great many people will claim that what is obviously a crime motivated by blatant bigotry is in fact a politically-inspired protest.
                              The mention of their skin color was to contrast them to white people behaving in a similar manner and the reception they would receive in the author's hypothetical example. Mentioning skin color in a relevant context is rayciss.

                              What's really racist is lao tzu's head. The lack of hair could be considered to be cultural appropriation of the average African American male who keeps his hair short, if not shaved outright.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment

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