How Great The Fall!

[Cow Poke]

Is that a Christian Science thing?

It's a human nature thing.

[whag]

I'm an old fart, and a prude. I think what they're searching for is significance, and they think they can find it in "gender reassignment".

Surgery isn't a self-help seminar. No one cuts off his penis for kicks, old fart.

I think Pascal said it best - “There is a God-shaped vacuum in the heart of every person, and it can never be filled by any created thing. It can only be filled by God, made known through Jesus Christ.”

That's so dismissive of all kinds of disorders and manias suffered by Christians as to be laughable.

[Cow Poke]

That's so dismissive of all kinds of disorders and manias suffered by Christians as to be laughable.

Especially to somebody who looks for any opportunity to laugh at Christianity. NOWHERE does that state or imply that there aren't actual problems.

[whag]

Especially to somebody who looks for any opportunity to laugh at Christianity. NOWHERE does that state or imply that there aren't actual problems.

The filling of the hole is also accompanied by meds and counseling for some people. Don't oversimplify because it's confusing for those who expect the peace of mind promised by Pascal's quote.

[Cow Poke]

The filling of the hole is also accompanied by meds and counseling for some people.

No problem! But that doesn't eliminate what, in a Christian's view, is the ultimate crisis - the eternal solution.

Don't oversimplify because it's confusing for those who expect the peace of mind promised by Pascal's quote.

Don't overcomplicate it by misrepresenting what Pascal was intending. You're doing that JackWhag thing again.

[Jedidiah]

Surgery isn't a self-help seminar. No one cuts off his penis for kicks, old fart.

That's so dismissive of all kinds of disorders and manias suffered by Christians as to be laughable.

Some people today seem to be into this whole self mutilation thing. For kicks might not be an entirely accurate description but it is far from entirely inaccurate. The fact that Christians suffer from mental disorders in this fallen world, does not change the fact that all these sex change operations are caused by sever mental disorders. Yes ALL.

[pancreasman]

Whatever became of the 'freedom' thing that you guys are so passionate about elsewhere. Who are we to limit what a person should or should not do with their bodies.

I can accept that as conservative Christians you have a view of human sexuality which is essentially binary. Of course you are free to hold those views. I'll even defend your right to hold such views, but your views should not limit the freedom of those who hold different views to act on them.

As to gender reassignment, it certainly is a fraught issue. My understanding is that in my country at least anyone electing to have this surgery must go through extensive psychological assessment and several assessments along the way before they reach the point of no return. This seems to me to provide at least some of the safeguard against the kind of scenarios some of you are suggesting. It would be interesting to see any longitudinal studies of the mental health of reassignment surgery. This might help disengage us from our personal feelings about the issue.

[Adrift]

Whatever became of the 'freedom' thing that you guys are so passionate about elsewhere. Who are we to limit what a person should or should not do with their bodies.

I can accept that as conservative Christians you have a view of human sexuality which is essentially binary. Of course you are free to hold those views. I'll even defend your right to hold such views, but your views should not limit the freedom of those who hold different views to act on them.

There probably isn't much conservative Christians can do about the issue one way or the other at this point. Our society, thanks in very large part to our media, is coming more and more to the conclusion that this is normative behavior. The reasons Christians voice their concerns about what others do with their bodies varies, but one of the concerns may be the knowledge that they're now stuck living and raising their children in a culture that glorifies and celebrates something that their faith teaches is morally reprehensible. I imagine it was hard enough to raise your children to take on your values in previous decades, but we live in a world nowadays where very young and impressionable children are bombarded with words, music, and images that are sexually confusing. I mean, I remember even when I was a young teen struggling to come to terms with my own sexuality, and that was in the early 90s. I can't imagine the confusion, and body image problems kids go through today. And then of course, there's the principle behind self harm that Christians are ideologically against. Just as we wouldn't want to see people commit suicide, or cut themselves, neither do we want to see people mutilate their bodies based on a confused notion of gender. We love people, and we want to see people healed both mentally and physically.

As to gender reassignment, it certainly is a fraught issue. My understanding is that in my country at least anyone electing to have this surgery must go through extensive psychological assessment and several assessments along the way before they reach the point of no return. This seems to me to provide at least some of the safeguard against the kind of scenarios some of you are suggesting. It would be interesting to see any longitudinal studies of the mental health of reassignment surgery. This might help disengage us from our personal feelings about the issue.

I don't know if a whole lot of people will find comfort in that fact, especially if psychiatric Bibles like the DSM currently consider gender identity disorders more normative than not.

[phank]

Then some people are just messed up. I remember I had a friend Bobby, when we were around 16 he asked me to go to a movie with him (I was the only friend he asked). The movie was about this Christine Jorgensen guy who became a woman. I mean the whole thing just did not compute to me - a small town boy. After the movie Bobby told me that was what he was going to do. I didn't know what to say. But he was a very troubled kid, and I don't think, he thought, that he was sticking his finger in the eye of God. He was just lost soul.

I think you're on the right track here. At the margins, biology is always messy. Even gender is not absolute. Orientatations don't necessarily fit bodies, some people are neither male nor female right down at the chromosome level. To some people this is a natural side-effect of the wide range of biological variation - you're going to have people who simply don't belong in any particular category. My reading as of currently is that those who have sex change operations generally (but not always) tend to feel more comfortable after the operation, but not as comfortable as those who are happily right in the center of the gender mode, fully male or fully female. The operation is not so much a correction as it is a pain reliever for a condition that can't be cured.

And so I'm with you in saying that these are truly sad cases. These people are doing what is usually the best that can be done under impossible circumstances. They aren't quite "changing sex", but they were in critical ways never either sex, and never will be.

[Cow Poke]

Whatever became of the 'freedom' thing that you guys are so passionate about elsewhere. Who are we to limit what a person should or should not do with their bodies.

When even some of the less "conservative" research shows a higher rate of suicide and other problems resulting from these things, I feel a responsibility to do whatever is in my power to at least make them slow down and think about what they're doing.

To me, it's not very loving to cheer them on and champion a cause that could lead to their destruction. (and, yeah, I know you're not saying that)

As for the "freedom thing" - I would also NOT cheer on somebody who was pouring gasoline over their body and getting ready to light a match. I would do my best to intervene.

[Starlight]

they're now stuck living and raising their children in a culture that glorifies and celebrates something that their faith teaches is morally reprehensible.

I don't think it's true that culture "glorifies and celebrates" it. At most it accepts and respects those people's self-identity. It's a matter of being nice to others and not forcing everyone else to conform to your beliefs. The alternative is to try and force your personal ideas of what is "morally reprehensible" onto everyone else and to be out criticizing and judging people for falling short of your personal moral standards.

I imagine it was hard enough to raise your children to take on your values in previous decades,

Again with the trying to force your values onto others.

I've noticed that in the US, there's quite a widespread idea of having some sort of right to force your own values onto your children and mold them in your image. That's always struck me as bizarre. Children are not your slaves or your property and their purpose is not to be clones of their parents: They have the freedom to choose for themselves what they will make of their lives. So a fear that children might not necessarily follow in the footsteps of, or endorse the values of, their parents, strikes me as bizarre.

[Cow Poke]

I don't think it's true that culture "glorifies and celebrates" it.

http://www.logotv.com/shows/rupauls_...1/series.jhtml

rupaul.jpg

[Cow Poke]

I've noticed that in the US, there's quite a widespread idea of having some sort of right to force your own values onto your children and mold them in your image.

Well, SOME of us believe it's important to teach our children to respect life, not stomp on kittens and puppies, show respect to elders, eat with silverware, not kick, bite and scratch, to eat healthy and get sleep, not play in traffic....

so, yeah, guilty!

And I never thought of it as a "right" - it was my responsibility as a parent.

[Starlight]

When even some of the less "conservative" research shows a higher rate of suicide and other problems resulting from these things,

The research you cited earlier in this thread simply observed that transsexuals have a higher rate of suicide and other problems than the general population. It absolutely did not imply anything about whether these people would have been happier if they hadn't had the operation or if they had tried to live as their original gender.

The primary reason transsexual people tend to suffer problems and have high rates of suicide is discrimination. Discrimination is a well-known and well-documented problem for transsexuals and also for gay people. Transsexuals are far more likely to suffer physical violence and verbal abuse, as well as general prejudice and social stigma, than the average person.

Let me be abundantly clear: The reason that transsexual people (and gay people for that matter) have higher rates of suicide is because of people like you who oppose their identity and their choices.

I feel a responsibility to do whatever is in my power to at least make them slow down and think about what they're doing.

To me, it's not very loving to cheer them on and champion a cause that could lead to their destruction.

What's not very loving is to be the cause of that destruction through discrimination and prejudice.

[Cow Poke]

What's not very loving is to be the cause of that destruction through discrimination and prejudice.

Then allow me to express my own opinion and stop discriminating against me, ya big hypocrite!