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Obama absolves Islam, rebukes Christianity

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
    A high level. How does one quantify such things? The impression I receive from both Christians on this site and people I know in real life is that Christianity, and especially Christianity in the US, is in dire straits and getting attacked from all sides. In part, I think this is political bleed over. The conservatives in the US are predominantly Christian, and a lot of the stances and laws that are getting struck down are founded on Christian beliefs on right and wrong. It's normal and expected for a person to vote in accordance with that they think is right or wrong, but such beliefs aren't sufficient for basing laws upon. We should be outlawing things based on harm, not because we think a person shouldn't be doing it. In many cases, Christians have attempted to show harm but have continually failed to succeed. Witness the claims surrounding the downfall of the family unit. The facts just don't bear out the beliefs. When they don't, the laws and ideologies those beliefs support come into question and often get struck down. That's to be expected.

    Which brings me again to quantifying a major concern. The study Rogue referenced shows an increase in overall religious hostility in all areas except the Americas. I don't see or hear anything that shows Christian concern for those other religions. That's to be expected, but I'm certainly not going to take seriously any claim for special persecution (which is what's often done) when the increase isn't focused on a particular group. Even granting Rogue's 10% of Christians, that's not a large enough percentage to classify as 'major'. If it was a growing percentage, and the percentage was >33%, I'd be willing to grant it as major. As it stands, Christianity's foothold is strong and thriving, even if certain adherents are facing the same persecution their other religious neighbors are experiencing.

    In answer to your question, the level I hear claimed is 'high', and I think your description of it as a major concern underscores that. To hear Christians tell it, they are facing rejection and hostility every day. It's perfectly reasonable to be worried about persecution, but I think it's incumbent on all of us to include context and put things into proper perspective. Here's a relevant anecdote: when my wife and I first started to turn away from Christianity, we were still attending a couple's bible study. My wife commented one time that she was noticing how often some of the other people would say things like "the world tells us X" or "the world wants us to do Y". The entire discussion was framed as Christians Vs The World. In my experience, this same frame of reference is what I see in a majority of Christians. You (general plural) tell yourselves and each other how hard it is to struggle against everything "the world" throws at you. Is it any surprise that you see persecution in so many things?
    I think you're equivocating in your last paragraph (and square_peg, too). When I said "major concern," I wasn't talking about so-called persecution in the US. (For the record, I have personally never faced any and never claimed to. I'm also not considering mockery and ridicule to be persecution.) But that's exactly what the two of you refer to. I was talking about the torture and murder of Christians.

    But if that's not a big deal to you, then ok. I guess Christians in North Korea just need to toughen up, huh?
    Last edited by Zymologist; 02-09-2015, 03:18 PM.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      I think you're equivocating in your last paragraph (and square_peg, too). When I said "major concern," I wasn't talking about so-called persecution in the US. (For the record, I have personally never faced any and never claimed to. I'm also not considering mockery and ridicule to be persecution.) But that's exactly what the two of you refer to. I was talking about the torture and murder of Christians.

      But if that's not a big deal to you, then ok. I guess Christians in North Korea just need to toughen up, huh?
      I certainly don't consider the persecution in NK to be on par with whatever is supposedly happening in the US. What I typically hear from Christians, including those on this site, is worry about the latter. I don't see or hear all that much about the former. When persecutions in NK etc are mentioned, it's often indicated as part of the general persecution Christians face. That is, the sentiments I've heard expressed are effectively, "Persecution of Christians is getting worse, just look at these things that have happened recently in the US. It's even more apparent in places like NK, but it's just a matter of time until that happens here, too."

      I think torture and murder are major concerns. I think most of us think that. Why add "of Christians" as if this makes it particularly damning? That's part of my point. This is the same thing people face the world over regardless of their particular affiliations. The root causes are extremism, and a end-justifies-the-means mentality. I think the unpleasant truth is that the "of Christians" is what makes it actually compelling for Christians. Without the "of Christians" added in, it's not all that interesting. It's the same phenomenon we see with everything else: make it personally relevant or no one cares.
      I'm not here anymore.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
        I certainly don't consider the persecution in NK to be on par with whatever is supposedly happening in the US. What I typically hear from Christians, including those on this site, is worry about the latter. I don't see or hear all that much about the former. When persecutions in NK etc are mentioned, it's often indicated as part of the general persecution Christians face. That is, the sentiments I've heard expressed are effectively, "Persecution of Christians is getting worse, just look at these things that have happened recently in the US. It's even more apparent in places like NK, but it's just a matter of time until that happens here, too."

        I think torture and murder are major concerns. I think most of us think that. Why add "of Christians" as if this makes it particularly damning? That's part of my point. This is the same thing people face the world over regardless of their particular affiliations. The root causes are extremism, and a end-justifies-the-means mentality. I think the unpleasant truth is that the "of Christians" is what makes it actually compelling for Christians. Without the "of Christians" added in, it's not all that interesting. It's the same phenomenon we see with everything else: make it personally relevant or no one cares.
        I thought the discussion was about the persecution "of Christians." So now you appear to be accusing me (and others here) of not caring about anyone but my own camp.

        But anyway, carry on. This seems to be quickly degenerating.
        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
          A high level. How does one quantify such things? The impression I receive from both Christians on this site and people I know in real life is that Christianity, and especially Christianity in the US, is in dire straits and getting attacked from all sides. In part, I think this is political bleed over.
          It is entirely political bleed over. The main problem, as I see it, is that Christians mistake impotence for persecution. Christians have the numbers (at least nominally), so we should set the tone for policy.

          The conservatives in the US are predominantly Christian, and a lot of the stances and laws that are getting struck down are founded on Christian beliefs on right and wrong. It's normal and expected for a person to vote in accordance with that they think is right or wrong, but such beliefs aren't sufficient for basing laws upon. We should be outlawing things based on harm, not because we think a person shouldn't be doing it.
          Unfortunately, this interpretation of events is not congruent with reality. On important issues (immigration, abortion), the progressive position does cause considerable harm (with the former destroying the worker class liberals claim to care so much about). In fact with the former the law is nominally on conservatives' side but liberals still get their way on it. The reality is that on most issues both sides argue based on harm, with convincing arguments that harm is being done on both sides, but even when the law is on our side, the liberals still win on every issue other than gun control. The reality is that Christians (or, rather, white Conservative Christians, and to a lesser extent conservative catholic and black Christians) lose because everybody else cheats. Constitution protects you from being forced to bake cake for poz weddings? We'll just stuff the bench with our judges who will then proceed to ignore it. Stuff the APA full of mentally ill liberals (but I repeat myself) who declare there's nothing wrong with a ruptured rectum once in a while, etc.

          In many cases, Christians have attempted to show harm but have continually failed to succeed. Witness the claims surrounding the downfall of the family unit. The facts just don't bear out the beliefs. When they don't, the laws and ideologies those beliefs support come into question and often get struck down. That's to be expected.
          Which facts, exactly? Fertility rates are rock bottom. Divorce rates are high and only dropping because people aren't even getting married anymore, and many of the few that do get married and have kids at ridiculous ages. Not only is the family unit disappearing but so is interest in even having a family.

          The one thing I'll agree on is that poz marriage has little to do with it, but the harm caused by homosexuality has been demonstrated repeatedly on these boards so the broader argument on homosexuality are still based on harm.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
            I thought the discussion was about the persecution "of Christians." So now you appear to be accusing me (and others here) of not caring about anyone but my own camp.

            But anyway, carry on. This seems to be quickly degenerating.
            Let's back up a step. I think we agree that there can be equivocation between what happens abroad and what happens in the US in terms of persecution. That equivocation is what I was referring to because it seems to be the source of most persecution claims. You want to leave that equivocation out of the discussion. So be it. You clarified in Post #46 that you were talking about the murder and torture of Christians. From what I can see, and I think that Pew Research study supports this, there's nothing particular about Christianity that's at play. What's really happening is persecution of religion. It just happens to include Christianity because it falls into the broader category. In light of that, I'd like to know why you think it's important to focus only on that of Christians.

            FWIW, I don't find "my own camp" reasoning to be incriminating. I realize that may not be how most people see it, but I think it's a basic part of human nature. It doesn't make any particular group more or less evil for feeling that way.
            I'm not here anymore.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
              FWIW, I don't find "my own camp" reasoning to be incriminating. I realize that may not be how most people see it, but I think it's a basic part of human nature. It doesn't make any particular group more or less evil for feeling that way.
              Does this include racists?
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                It is entirely political bleed over. The main problem, as I see it, is that Christians mistake impotence for persecution. Christians have the numbers (at least nominally), so we should set the tone for policy.
                Right.


                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Unfortunately, this interpretation of events is not congruent with reality. On important issues (immigration, abortion), the progressive position does cause considerable harm (with the former destroying the worker class liberals claim to care so much about). In fact with the former the law is nominally on conservatives' side but liberals still get their way on it. The reality is that on most issues both sides argue based on harm, with convincing arguments that harm is being done on both sides, but even when the law is on our side, the liberals still win on every issue other than gun control. The reality is that Christians (or, rather, white Conservative Christians, and to a lesser extent conservative catholic and black Christians) lose because everybody else cheats. Constitution protects you from being forced to bake cake for poz weddings? We'll just stuff the bench with our judges who will then proceed to ignore it. Stuff the APA full of mentally ill liberals (but I repeat myself) who declare there's nothing wrong with a ruptured rectum once in a while, etc.
                I think the conservative groups are happy cheating, they're just not nearly as skilled at it. Witness voter id laws and district restructuring. I haven't actually argued that progressive/liberal positions don't cause harm, though. I think both sides have a lot of ideas that ultimately cause harm. That's part of the reason I'm independent.


                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Which facts, exactly? Fertility rates are rock bottom. Divorce rates are high and only dropping because people aren't even getting married anymore, and many of the few that do get married and have kids at ridiculous ages. Not only is the family unit disappearing but so is interest in even having a family.

                The one thing I'll agree on is that poz marriage has little to do with it, but the harm caused by homosexuality has been demonstrated repeatedly on these boards so the broader argument on homosexuality are still based on harm.
                You've answered your own question. The disappearance of the family unit is not attributable to an acceptance of same-sex marriage. We have bigger fish to fry, but they aren't the sort that can be legislated into place. I'm of the belief that government is not the tool for the job. I think a lot of conservatives claim to want small government except for where they need to make people comply with their beliefs. I think that exception ends up being relied upon more often than the rule.
                I'm not here anymore.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                  Does this include racists?
                  Yep. Historically, racism is based primarily upon the belief that other races are subhuman. It's a combination of "not my camp" and "other camps are inferior".
                  I'm not here anymore.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Imagine if everyone got together and forced him AND Biden to resign.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DLAbaoaqu View Post
                      Imagine if everyone got together and forced him AND Biden to resign.
                      I believe such a process is called an election and I understand that you guys have one in a while.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                        I think the conservative groups are happy cheating, they're just not nearly as skilled at it. Witness voter id laws and district restructuring.
                        I find it amusing that you list an anti-cheating measure as cheating. You could call that a form of cheating.

                        I also wouldn't conflate the Republican Party with conservatives. The Republican Party is conservative in some areas (like taxes) but where it counts (culture) it's indistinguishable from a center-left party. I agree that conservatives are stupid though, which is part of why Republicans play them easier than Democrats play their base.

                        I haven't actually argued that progressive/liberal positions don't cause harm, though. I think both sides have a lot of ideas that ultimately cause harm. That's part of the reason I'm independent.
                        The point I was making is that both sides usually argue for/against legislation based on harm done, so there was no reason to distinguish conservatives as being any different. On the whole there is literally no issue on which conservatives argue on something other than harm. Even gay marriage, with their inept attempt at linking it to the decay of the family unit, they still argue harm (they just argue the wrong harm).

                        You've answered your own question. The disappearance of the family unit is not attributable to an acceptance of same-sex marriage. We have bigger fish to fry, but they aren't the sort that can be legislated into place.
                        I disagree that acceptance of same-sex marriage is not a big fish to fry. Getting people to accept degeneracy contributes to the collapse of culture. The more bizarre and absurd the things you can get the population to accept are, the easier it is to make them accept just about anything.

                        I'm of the belief that government is not the tool for the job.
                        The government is the single greatest concentration of power in any country. When it comes to fixing mass social problems it's the first tool for the job.

                        I think a lot of conservatives claim to want small government except for where they need to make people comply with their beliefs. I think that exception ends up being relied upon more often than the rule.
                        I wish this was actually true.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                          I believe such a process is called an election and I understand that you guys have one in a while.
                          Probably'd just XO the results...

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            I find it amusing that you list an anti-cheating measure as cheating. You could call that a form of cheating.
                            Eh, I think it was pretty clear that it was cheating disguised as anti-cheating. Had it been done at a normal time with years for people to get registered and obtain them, there would have been little fuss. The only real answer to "why right this instant?" was "because we'll lose". I have no problem with voter ids on their own.


                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            I also wouldn't conflate the Republican Party with conservatives. The Republican Party is conservative in some areas (like taxes) but where it counts (culture) it's indistinguishable from a center-left party. I agree that conservatives are stupid though, which is part of why Republicans play them easier than Democrats play their base.
                            That's fair.


                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            The point I was making is that both sides usually argue for/against legislation based on harm done, so there was no reason to distinguish conservatives as being any different. On the whole there is literally no issue on which conservatives argue on something other than harm. Even gay marriage, with their inept attempt at linking it to the decay of the family unit, they still argue harm (they just argue the wrong harm).
                            Oh I don't disagree that both sides argue based on harm. I just think they did so poorly, and you seem to agree.


                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            I disagree that acceptance of same-sex marriage is not a big fish to fry. Getting people to accept degeneracy contributes to the collapse of culture. The more bizarre and absurd the things you can get the population to accept are, the easier it is to make them accept just about anything.
                            Right. This was already happening, though. Even were I to grant there was an additional push from accepting same-sex marriage, it's a drop in the bucket compared to everything else that was already happening.


                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            The government is the single greatest concentration of power in any country. When it comes to fixing mass social problems it's the first tool for the job.
                            Any good craftsman knows that a bigger hammer can't solve every problem. It's a useful backup, but it's seldom the first tool for the job. I think the sort of thinking you show here is indicative of the general political problems we deal with. Everyone is fighting over the biggest hammer, but neither side actually knows when or where to use it. Even the most well-intentioned still do more harm than good.
                            I'm not here anymore.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                              I believe such a process is called an election and I understand that you guys have one in a while.
                              A forced resignation is an impeachment, not an election.
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                                A forced resignation is an impeachment, not an election.
                                True, but I strongly doubt there is a realistic chance of that.

                                Comment

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