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Obama absolves Islam, rebukes Christianity

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    Perhaps his point was precisely to omit it to bring this point home: as conservative Christians rush to exclude those who committed atrocities from being 'real Christians', they should not rush to consider the terrorists 'real Muslims'.
    And no Christian that I know personally has ever said that. Do you think it is only Christians who would do such a thing? Because that is what you seem to be implying.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      Perhaps Mr. O should have qualified his comments about Christianity by saying that those who have done atrocities in the name of Christ were/are not really Christians, just like he has said about Muslim terrorists.

      But, he didn't do that.
      That in a very round about way was what I was trying to say. Thank you for doing so far more succinctly.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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      • #33
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        I'm going to have to listen to the speech again before I can respond in full but it seems he is talking about folks who committed atrocities a hundred to a thousand years ago "in the name of Christ" and comparing it to what is going on today by folks who aren't actual Muslims. I do not see this as the same and as moral equivalency and excuse making at best
        No, he's a lot more recent than that. He mentions Jim Crow and the killing of Muslims and Christians in Nigeria.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sam View Post
          What folks have to remember, also, is that the president is responsible for the interests and security of the country. He therefore has a very large and rational incentive, as the previous president before him, to do his absolute best to maintain that military conflicts with these groups are not military contexts against Islam. My old history prof put it well on FB the other day: military conflicts increase religious fervor among the victims. We saw it with al Qaeda, we saw it after 9/11 and, yes, we saw it during the Crusades. If Bush or Obama were to stand at the podium and say even a watered-down version of what a lot of hawkish pundits want them to say -- that we are at war with only radical Islam, that will only help serve to radicalize the religious element on both sides of the conflicts.

          While that may make people feel better, it won't do anything to advance the interests or security of the country. Therefore, in addition to being an important reminder of human depravity, regardless of sect, it's just good sense for a president to swear up and down that Islam is practiced peacefully by the vast majority of adherents and we are in no way "at war" with Islam.

          --Sam
          Yeah because saying something bad about Christianity might result in getting a stern letter whereas saying something bad is liable to get someone's head lopped off.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            And no Christian that I know personally has ever said that.
            No Christian you know personally considers terrorists real Muslims?

            Do you think it is only Christians who would do such a thing? Because that is what you seem to be implying.
            That is certainly not what I am implying. I imply nothing about my own position; I only offer a suggestion as to what Obama's intent could have been.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              And no Christian that I know personally has ever said that. Do you think it is only Christians who would do such a thing? Because that is what you seem to be implying.
              And yet I've seen it stated repeatedly on these forums, by Christians, that what 'we' are at war with is an ideology (Islam). Such extremists are touted as further evidence for the supposed persecution and danger Christianity faces in the world.
              I'm not here anymore.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                And yet I've seen it stated repeatedly on these forums, by Christians, that what 'we' are at war with is an ideology (Islam). Such extremists are touted as further evidence for the supposed persecution and danger Christianity faces in the world.
                Wait...are you denying that Christianity faces persecution and danger in the world?
                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                  And yet I've seen it stated repeatedly on these forums, by Christians, that what 'we' are at war with is an ideology (Islam). Such extremists are touted as further evidence for the supposed persecution and danger Christianity faces in the world.
                  Considering that a recent report from the Pew Research Center concluded that Christians are the most persecuted religion in every region of the world outside the Americas perhaps there is something to that

                  harassed religions_0.jpg

                  This has been corroborated by studies conducted by the International Society for Human Rights (a secular group not known for possessing a pro-Christian bias) that claims that up to 80% of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. A group that does have a pro-Christian bias, the Massachusetts-based Center for the Study of Global Christianity estimates that 100,000 Christians now die every year, targeted because of their faith that works out to be 11 every hour.

                  It has been estimated that 200 million Christians (approximately 10% of Christians worldwide) are openly harassed or actively oppressed for their beliefs.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Yeah because saying something bad about Christianity might result in getting a stern letter whereas saying something bad is liable to get someone's head lopped off.
                    Even granting the assumption, we know this has not been history ally the case. The citizens of these nominally Christian countries only became "peaceful" when they developed standing armies, regional stability, and wealth. It's not like Christianity deterred violence among Christian nations when it was a big part of the power structure during Luther's day,after all.

                    Point being that there are many causes of violence, war, and terrorism. While religion can play, and has played, an outsized role in justifying violence, that's not the function of any particular religion. We've got the same kind of blood on our hands as Christians. From a moral standpoint, then, we shouldn't play at double standards when it comes to Islam - like how numerous people on this very forum have argued that Islam is - inherently- a violent religion while Christianity is an inherently peaceful one. On top of that, we should interpret a president's remarks on this topic principally through the lens of national security rather than as an audition for a Norm Geisler debate.
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                      Wait...are you denying that Christianity faces persecution and danger in the world?
                      Of course not. I deny that it's anywhere on the level it's claimed to be, and I claim that the justifications for such a view are very weak. Every religion faces persecution and danger in the world. Christianity isn't special in that regard, and if you read the actual study that Rogue references, that's pretty clear. The claim, though, is that 'Muslim ideology' is specifically fighting against Christians, which is pretty much nonsense.


                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Considering that a recent report from the Pew Research Center concluded that Christians are the most persecuted religion in every region of the world outside the Americas perhaps there is something to that

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]3921[/ATTACH]

                      This has been corroborated by studies conducted by the International Society for Human Rights (a secular group not known for possessing a pro-Christian bias) that claims that up to 80% of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. A group that does have a pro-Christian bias, the Massachusetts-based Center for the Study of Global Christianity estimates that 100,000 Christians now die every year, targeted because of their faith that works out to be 11 every hour.

                      It has been estimated that 200 million Christians (approximately 10% of Christians worldwide) are openly harassed or actively oppressed for their beliefs.
                      A number of countries doesn't mean much when we're talking about large quantities of tiny countries which actively repress the handful of Christians living in them. If you want to look at an actual trend, see the graph where they're separated by year. Christianity's persecution is about the same as it always was, while Islam has seen a steady rise in the number of countries since 2009. It's not as if 'number of countries' is a useful metric anyway. In point of fact, the study you're referencing specifically states that religious hostilities increased in every major region except the Americas (so much for the legal/social persecution that's been growing steadily). Let's look at the whole study and not try to take things out of context. By the way, for those interested, the study can be found here: http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/r...six-year-high/
                      I'm not here anymore.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                        Of course not. I deny that it's anywhere on the level it's claimed to be, and I claim that the justifications for such a view are very weak. Every religion faces persecution and danger in the world. Christianity isn't special in that regard, and if you read the actual study that Rogue references, that's pretty clear. The claim, though, is that 'Muslim ideology' is specifically fighting against Christians, which is pretty much nonsense.
                        What level is it claimed to be on, then? You appear to be severely downplaying a major concern, i.e., "it's no big deal."
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          And no Christian that I know personally has ever said that.
                          You don't know Cerebrum?


                          Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                          What level is it claimed to be on, then? You appear to be severely downplaying a major concern, i.e., "it's no big deal."
                          It's a big deal if you're a Christian living in the Middle East or some countries in Africa, but there has to be some irony when the loudest complaints about Christian persecution come from the United States, the least persecuted Christian nation in the world.
                          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                            You don't know Cerebrum?
                            You don't think that the Muslim terrorists actually embody the teachings of Mohammed, and Islam?

                            For what it's worth, I don't take the terrorists as representative of Muslims. I do however see that they embody the teachings of Islam, a subtle, but important difference.

                            It's a big deal if you're a Christian living in the Middle East or some countries in Africa, but there has to be some irony when the loudest complaints about Christian persecution come from the United States, the least persecuted Christian nation in the world.
                            Eh, as I wasn't dragged into this part, I think I'll keep out. I've been trying to keep serious interactions to a minimum here lately.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                              What level is it claimed to be on, then? You appear to be severely downplaying a major concern, i.e., "it's no big deal."
                              A high level. How does one quantify such things? The impression I receive from both Christians on this site and people I know in real life is that Christianity, and especially Christianity in the US, is in dire straits and getting attacked from all sides. In part, I think this is political bleed over. The conservatives in the US are predominantly Christian, and a lot of the stances and laws that are getting struck down are founded on Christian beliefs on right and wrong. It's normal and expected for a person to vote in accordance with that they think is right or wrong, but such beliefs aren't sufficient for basing laws upon. We should be outlawing things based on harm, not because we think a person shouldn't be doing it. In many cases, Christians have attempted to show harm but have continually failed to succeed. Witness the claims surrounding the downfall of the family unit. The facts just don't bear out the beliefs. When they don't, the laws and ideologies those beliefs support come into question and often get struck down. That's to be expected.

                              Which brings me again to quantifying a major concern. The study Rogue referenced shows an increase in overall religious hostility in all areas except the Americas. I don't see or hear anything that shows Christian concern for those other religions. That's to be expected, but I'm certainly not going to take seriously any claim for special persecution (which is what's often done) when the increase isn't focused on a particular group. Even granting Rogue's 10% of Christians, that's not a large enough percentage to classify as 'major'. If it was a growing percentage, and the percentage was >33%, I'd be willing to grant it as major. As it stands, Christianity's foothold is strong and thriving, even if certain adherents are facing the same persecution their other religious neighbors are experiencing.

                              In answer to your question, the level I hear claimed is 'high', and I think your description of it as a major concern underscores that. To hear Christians tell it, they are facing rejection and hostility every day. It's perfectly reasonable to be worried about persecution, but I think it's incumbent on all of us to include context and put things into proper perspective. Here's a relevant anecdote: when my wife and I first started to turn away from Christianity, we were still attending a couple's bible study. My wife commented one time that she was noticing how often some of the other people would say things like "the world tells us X" or "the world wants us to do Y". The entire discussion was framed as Christians Vs The World. In my experience, this same frame of reference is what I see in a majority of Christians. You (general plural) tell yourselves and each other how hard it is to struggle against everything "the world" throws at you. Is it any surprise that you see persecution in so many things?
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                But he implies it all throughout the speech. He literally uses the phrase "in the name of Christ", not "Christian" or "Christianity". This is a direct correlation to his previous phrasing "those who profess Islam". You almost have to come at the whole video from the frame of mind that you don't like Obama to read it any other way. As a relatively neutral observer, it did not at all occur to me that he was doing something like blaming Christians or Christianity for the Crusades, slavery, and Jim Crow. He was expounding on the fact that all ideologies, misappropriated through sinful behavior, can cause evil.
                                I like how the point about the Crusades being primarily a retaliation against Muslim conquest of Christian lands gets missed in all this. It's telling of either Obola's ignorance of history, or of his hidden beliefs that Muslim terrorists are just protecting themselves from unwarranted aggression.
                                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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