Originally posted by Joel
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Bowe Bergdahl to be charged with desertion
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Originally posted by Joel View PostAs do employees in general. That doesn't justify employers shooting employees that try to quit
(or imprisoning, etc).
Another possible argument is that it's because defense/combat/emergency is unique. That's lessened by the fact that police also engage in defense and sometimes combat, and rely on each other. And people join and leave police forces all the time. We can also consider private security forces, firemen, etc."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostIt does if it's part of the contract.
E.g., if you work for me for 2 years, I will give you a bonus of $x.
If the bonus is paid as an advance, it is sometimes stipulated that it must be repaid, in part or full, if the employee quits early.
It may also be possible to stipulate a monetary sum that is owed if the period of work is not completed. That could take care of the worry of recruits skipping out after training. (Also I hear that boot camp is the best part of being in the military. )
I've heard it said that most entry-level positions consist of lots of training with the employee not being profitable at first, yet employment contracts are typically reserved for high-level and high-skilled employees in special cases (e.g. when the purchaser of a company wants to retain the top talent).
And then all of that would be a civil matter, not a criminal conviction (including for non-military government employees).
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Originally posted by myth View PostI'm dumbfounded at the White House's logic on this. He left his unit voluntarily, so we're going to free to terrorists to get a deserter back? Sounds rather like we freed terrorists to kidnap a deserter. Epic fail.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Joel View PostI'm pretty sure employment contracts cannot (and should not be able to) compel someone to actually continue performing labor services in indentured servitude. My understanding is that they just specify an agreed-upon exchange: some additional benefit/consideration in exchange for a certain period of work.
E.g., if you work for me for 2 years, I will give you a bonus of $x.
If the bonus is paid as an advance, it is sometimes stipulated that it must be repaid, in part or full, if the employee quits early.
It may also be possible to stipulate a monetary sum that is owed if the period of work is not completed. That could take care of the worry of recruits skipping out after training. (Also I hear that boot camp is the best part of being in the military. )
I've heard it said that most entry-level positions consist of lots of training with the employee not being profitable at first, yet employment contracts are typically reserved for high-level and high-skilled employees in special cases (e.g. when the purchaser of a company wants to retain the top talent).
And then all of that would be a civil matter, not a criminal conviction (including for non-military government employees).
When one begins work with the federal govt, you take an oath to uphold the Constitution and all lawful orders given by your ssuperiors. Now I don't know how this oath is administered anymore...I had mentioned this oath to a new employee who just gave me a blank look...so perhaps they just sign a piece of paper now.
As for bonuses and all that, the military already have all that going in their efforts to recruit.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Joel View PostI'm pretty sure employment contracts cannot (and should not be able to) compel someone to actually continue performing labor services in indentured servitude. My understanding is that they just specify an agreed-upon exchange: some additional benefit/consideration in exchange for a certain period of work.
E.g., if you work for me for 2 years, I will give you a bonus of $x.
If the bonus is paid as an advance, it is sometimes stipulated that it must be repaid, in part or full, if the employee quits early.
It may also be possible to stipulate a monetary sum that is owed if the period of work is not completed. That could take care of the worry of recruits skipping out after training. (Also I hear that boot camp is the best part of being in the military. )
I've heard it said that most entry-level positions consist of lots of training with the employee not being profitable at first, yet employment contracts are typically reserved for high-level and high-skilled employees in special cases (e.g. when the purchaser of a company wants to retain the top talent).
And then all of that would be a civil matter, not a criminal conviction (including for non-military government employees).
When one begins work with the federal govt, you take an oath to uphold the Constitution and all lawful orders given by your superiors. Now I don't know how this oath is administered anymore...I had mentioned this oath to a new employee who just gave me a blank look...so perhaps they just sign a piece of paper now.
As for bonuses and all that, the military already have all that going in their efforts to recruit.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Joel View PostI'm pretty sure employment contracts cannot (and should not be able to) compel someone to actually continue performing labor services in indentured servitude. My understanding is that they just specify an agreed-upon exchange: some additional benefit/consideration in exchange for a certain period of work.
E.g., if you work for me for 2 years, I will give you a bonus of $x.
If the bonus is paid as an advance, it is sometimes stipulated that it must be repaid, in part or full, if the employee quits early.
It may also be possible to stipulate a monetary sum that is owed if the period of work is not completed. That could take care of the worry of recruits skipping out after training. (Also I hear that boot camp is the best part of being in the military. )
I've heard it said that most entry-level positions consist of lots of training with the employee not being profitable at first, yet employment contracts are typically reserved for high-level and high-skilled employees in special cases (e.g. when the purchaser of a company wants to retain the top talent).
And then all of that would be a civil matter, not a criminal conviction (including for non-military government employees).The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJoel, when you sign on to service with the military, you agree to subject yourself to a whole 'nuther legal system - the Uniform Code of Military Justice. There is similar "additional" legal system that you subject yourself to when you take a job in the private sector.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJoel, when you sign on to service with the military, you agree to subject yourself to a whole 'nuther legal system - the Uniform Code of Military Justice. There is no similar "additional" legal system that you subject yourself to when you take a job in the private sector.
My guess is that this law is a relic of the barbaric era of the draft. It makes a kind of logic that if you are going to force people into service, then you'd want to make it a crime to leave.
This law may also reflect the tendency of states to protect their own interests more than those of the people. States have tended to want to force people to work for them. Other examples are how the crimes that states typically treat most severely are crimes against itself (as opposed to crimes against the people it exists to protect), e.g. treason, desertion, subversion, counterfeiting, tax evasion, assaulting a police officer or other agent of the state, vs assault of an ordinary citizen. For most of history, speaking ill of the state was also in that list.
As for whether people can voluntarily submit to a legal system that denies you liberty, it depends on whether the right to life and liberty are unalienable--which means you cannot give them away by contract even if you wanted to. If they are unalienable, then any contract/oath/etc that purports to transfer those rights (e.g. you agreeing to sell yourself into slavery) is null and void.
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Are you thinking that leaving the military is always considered equivalent to desertion? If so, I don't think that's correct. I've heard of people getting out of the military before their contract is up. Not sure what kind of penalty they incur...but I don't think they call that desertion.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Joel View PostI know it's different. I'm suggesting that this particular difference (a special law written by Congress into the UCMJ) making 'desertion' a crime (punishable even by death) is maybe a bad thing--creates involuntary servitude for those wanting to quit. (And may also be unconstitutional under the 13th Amendment.)
My guess is that this law is a relic of the barbaric era of the draft. It makes a kind of logic that if you are going to force people into service, then you'd want to make it a crime to leave.
This law may also reflect the tendency of states to protect their own interests more than those of the people. States have tended to want to force people to work for them. Other examples are how the crimes that states typically treat most severely are crimes against itself (as opposed to crimes against the people it exists to protect), e.g. treason, desertion, subversion, counterfeiting, tax evasion, assaulting a police officer or other agent of the state, vs assault of an ordinary citizen. For most of history, speaking ill of the state was also in that list.
As for whether people can voluntarily submit to a legal system that denies you liberty, it depends on whether the right to life and liberty are unalienable--which means you cannot give them away by contract even if you wanted to. If they are unalienable, then any contract/oath/etc that purports to transfer those rights (e.g. you agreeing to sell yourself into slavery) is null and void.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Joel View PostI know it's different. I'm suggesting that this particular difference (a special law written by Congress into the UCMJ) making 'desertion' a crime (punishable even by death) is maybe a bad thing--creates involuntary servitude for those wanting to quit. (And may also be unconstitutional under the 13th Amendment.)The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostAre you thinking that leaving the military is always considered equivalent to desertion? If so, I don't think that's correct. I've heard of people getting out of the military before their contract is up. Not sure what kind of penalty they incur...but I don't think they call that desertion.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostI know it's different. I'm suggesting that this particular difference (a special law written by Congress into the UCMJ) making 'desertion' a crime (punishable even by death) is maybe a bad thing--creates involuntary servitude for those wanting to quit. (And may also be unconstitutional under the 13th Amendment.)
My guess is that this law is a relic of the barbaric era of the draft. It makes a kind of logic that if you are going to force people into service, then you'd want to make it a crime to leave.
This law may also reflect the tendency of states to protect their own interests more than those of the people. States have tended to want to force people to work for them. Other examples are how the crimes that states typically treat most severely are crimes against itself (as opposed to crimes against the people it exists to protect), e.g. treason, desertion, subversion, counterfeiting, tax evasion, assaulting a police officer or other agent of the state, vs assault of an ordinary citizen. For most of history, speaking ill of the state was also in that list.
As for whether people can voluntarily submit to a legal system that denies you liberty, it depends on whether the right to life and liberty are unalienable--which means you cannot give them away by contract even if you wanted to. If they are unalienable, then any contract/oath/etc that purports to transfer those rights (e.g. you agreeing to sell yourself into slavery) is null and void."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by Joel View PostI know it's different. I'm suggesting that this particular difference (a special law written by Congress into the UCMJ) making 'desertion' a crime (punishable even by death) is maybe a bad thing--creates involuntary servitude for those wanting to quit. (And may also be unconstitutional under the 13th Amendment.)
My guess is that this law is a relic of the barbaric era of the draft. It makes a kind of logic that if you are going to force people into service, then you'd want to make it a crime to leave.
This law may also reflect the tendency of states to protect their own interests more than those of the people. States have tended to want to force people to work for them. Other examples are how the crimes that states typically treat most severely are crimes against itself (as opposed to crimes against the people it exists to protect), e.g. treason, desertion, subversion, counterfeiting, tax evasion, assaulting a police officer or other agent of the state, vs assault of an ordinary citizen. For most of history, speaking ill of the state was also in that list.
There was no force involved when I walked into the recruiters office and said I wanted to join the AF. There was no forced involved when I signed the paperwork to join the AF in the 3 times I've done it so far. Even than, there are still ways out of it if you really don't want to do it that don't involve running from your post, into hostel areas, to the arms of people that want to kill Americans.
As for whether people can voluntarily submit to a legal system that denies you liberty, it depends on whether the right to life and liberty are unalienable--which means you cannot give them away by contract even if you wanted to. If they are unalienable, then any contract/oath/etc that purports to transfer those rights (e.g. you agreeing to sell yourself into slavery) is null and void."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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