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Measles Spreading in California

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
    Not that I'm anti-vaccine, but I can't help but wonder how overstated this is. Increases in hygiene alone would make a pretty big dent in the spread of disease. I'm not convinced that failing to administer vaccines is as...catastrophic as is typically portrayed. That said, the risk/reward still plays heavily in favor of vaccination.

    Related note: my brother-in-law's wife has been talking about 'normal' delivery instead of a c-section (first child was c-section). She was kinda miffed that the doctor flat out refused. Apparently, he (rightly, imo) thinks the risk is not worth it. She wasn't so sure until I pointed out that the risk included possible death. It's an unlikely risk, ofc, but is it worth it under any avoidable circumstances? She didn't seem to think so.
    Umm all four of our girls were born via a normal delivery. It's the norm here in NZ. They only do a c-section if there are complications of some form.
    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
    1 Corinthians 16:13

    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
    -Ben Witherington III

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Raphael View Post
      Umm all four of our girls were born via a normal delivery. It's the norm here in NZ. They only do a c-section if there are complications of some form.
      In the US it is common practice to say that once you have had a C-section it is not advisable to deliver vaginally after that. It is done and is not all that uncommon, but a doctor may choose not to deal with a woman in that case.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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      • #48
        I will say this as many times as is necessary: A measles outbreak localized in California, aka, "one of the easiest possible dumping grounds for all those Central American deportables a couple months back that were getting shuffled around the country like the political footballs they were," is very, very, very very highly likely to be related to that influx.

        There are studies showing that measles outbreaks can occur in fully vaccinated populations.8,9,10 For example, an outbreak of measles in the spring of 1985 in Corpus Christi, Texas, occurred in a school where more than 99 percent of the students were fully vaccinated. After examining serum samples from students for detectable measles antibodies, the study’s researchers concluded that “outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated…
        Vaccinating everyone works, though nobody really tends to do controlled tests on long-term exposure of the vaccinated to a large community of people who have the active form of the virus. So, what's actually likely to have happened: an influx of deportables living among the Hispanic community, no resistance to the measles/bring their own slightly different strain of measles from south of the border, all of a sudden, the vaccines made to keep a small amount of the local variety from taking over your immune system have no defense against the large amounts of the foreign variety. They didn't need to go to Disneyland at all, their friends, cousins, compatriots, and others could have spread the virus and gone there, or Disneyland could have simply hired a bunch of janitors for slave wages. Or maybe Catholic Charities took them there on a feelgood trip.

        And given how non-assiduously the administration kept records on all of the people going to school, (they enrolled obvious adults as children with neither identification nor questions) I can't see much of a reason to trust their statistics.

        MEASLES OUTBREAK!!! BLAME THE ANTI-VAXXERS!!! is a rallying cry that I expect liberals to jump at, not conservatives who actually think about things like proximate causes and interested parties. You may as well go for STOCK MARKET DOWN!!! BLAME THE JEWS!!! or HARVEST BAD!!! BLAME THE KULAKS!!!

        Just like the enterovirus before it, these outbreaks seem to follow immigrant influxes like clockwork. I guess if you're lucky, none of these diseases will become endemic in the area, like meningitis or gang warfare. Borders are the worst form of quarantine, I suppose.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Raphael View Post
          Umm all four of our girls were born via a normal delivery. It's the norm here in NZ. They only do a c-section if there are complications of some form.
          My mom had 9 kinds, none of whom were C'd.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Christy View Post
            And one of the most likely reasons is that parents don't want their kids getting vaccinations; http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/22/us...=tw-share&_r=0
            The irony, of course, is that there are instances where even those who are fully vaccinated have contracted measles. Many people aren't aware that vaccines aren't 100% effective. For that matter, look at the number of people who get a flu vaccine every year and then can't understand why they still got sick.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              My mom had 9 kinds, none of whom were C'd.
              9 kinds?
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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              • #52
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                9 kinds?
                sure! You have your cowboys and cow girls, cow pokes, cow hands, cow punchers, cow wranglers, cow drivers, calf ropers and bull riders...
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                  Related note: my brother-in-law's wife has been talking about 'normal' delivery instead of a c-section (first child was c-section). She was kinda miffed that the doctor flat out refused. Apparently, he (rightly, imo) thinks the risk is not worth it. She wasn't so sure until I pointed out that the risk included possible death. It's an unlikely risk, ofc, but is it worth it under any avoidable circumstances? She didn't seem to think so.
                  Oh, don't even get me started. The doctor was not right to think the risk is not worth it. Having a vaginal birth after a c-section increases the chances of uterine rupture by less than 1%, and the risk of complications from major abominal surgery are much greater (risks include hemorrhage (1-6%), baby lacerated by the scalpal (1-2%), damage to internal organs (2%), and so on; premature delivery is also a major concern because it's not uncommon for doctors to incorrectly estimate the baby's development); not to mention it significantly increases the recovery period from days to weeks, or even months (some woman experience abdominal pain for up to six-months following a c-section).

                  Doctors prefer c-sections for a number of reasons but almost never because it's best for the patient -- it's a big money-maker for the doctor and the hospital (they get paid a lot more for surgery), and it's predictable allowing the doctor and hospital to schedule more deliveries and plan personal time. My first son was delivered via c-section largely because the doctor didn't want to change his vacation plans, and he convinced my wife that the baby would die if she didn't deliver by a certain date. We realized later this was a bald-faced lie.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    9 kinds?
                    Well, there's Rogue, and ME, and .... we're certainly different kinds!

                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                      Umm all four of our girls were born via a normal delivery. It's the norm here in NZ. They only do a c-section if there are complications of some form.
                      I've gotten the distinct impression that a lot of pregnancy-related decisions end up being convenient for the doctor/staff and less concerned about what the mother actually needs. The willingness to administer medication, first to dull the pain and then to speed up the process after it's been slowed by the pain medication, seems a strong indicator of this. C-Sections here end up being quite common if the woman encounters anything 'complicated', and they tend to be a 'once done always done' procedure.
                      I'm not here anymore.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Oh, don't even get me started. The doctor was not right to think the risk is not worth it. Having a vaginal birth after a c-section increases the chances of uterine rupture by less than 1%, and the risk of complications from major abominal surgery are much greater (risks include hemorrhage (1-6%), baby lacerated by the scalpal (1-2%), damage to internal organs (2%), and so on; premature delivery is also a major concern because it's not uncommon for doctors to incorrectly estimate the baby's development); not to mention it significantly increases the recovery period from days to weeks, or even months (some woman experience abdominal pain for up to six-months following a c-section).

                        Doctors prefer c-sections for a number of reasons but almost never because it's best for the patient -- it's a big money-maker for the doctor and the hospital (they get paid a lot more for surgery), and it's predictable allowing the doctor and hospital to schedule more deliveries and plan personal time. My first son was delivered via c-section largely because the doctor didn't want to change his vacation plans, and he convinced my wife that the baby would die if she didn't deliver by a certain date. We realized later this was a bald-faced lie.
                        I'll not apologize for what I told her. I put some things into perspective based on the information she provided at the time. Nothing you've said here necessarily surprises me, though. It seems to largely end up being an informational problem (either lack of or misrepresented). I'm not really sure where I stand on that issue, though. We have to trust these professionals (literally with our lives) to perform procedures according to their best judgment. We've reached a point where we can't really trust them to do that anymore, but we haven't reached a point where we've a choice in the matter. They're still the only ones qualified to do what they do.

                        I'm actually turning into an advocate of education reform with the view to restructure what classes we consider mandatory. We could perhaps do with a little less of some things in favor of some good knowledge of anatomy and physiology (as a relevant example).
                        I'm not here anymore.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                          I've gotten the distinct impression that a lot of pregnancy-related decisions end up being convenient for the doctor/staff and less concerned about what the mother actually needs. The willingness to administer medication, first to dull the pain and then to speed up the process after it's been slowed by the pain medication, seems a strong indicator of this. C-Sections here end up being quite common if the woman encounters anything 'complicated', and they tend to be a 'once done always done' procedure.
                          Yeah, an OB/GYN who was a member of my last church was telling me he was closing his practice because of the incredibly high malpractice insurance, and the pressure from HMOs and Insurance companies to "mitigate risk" by doing things in certain ways contrary to the Doctor's own preference for treatment.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Yeah, an OB/GYN who was a member of my last church was telling me he was closing his practice because of the incredibly high malpractice insurance, and the pressure from HMOs and Insurance companies to "mitigate risk" by doing things in certain ways contrary to the Doctor's own preference for treatment.
                            At the risk of a serious derail, I might be willing to argue this is an anticipated consequence of capitalism.
                            I'm not here anymore.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                              At the risk of a serious derail, I might be willing to argue this is an anticipated consequence of capitalism.
                              I can certainly see why you would think that.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                We had 3 children, first one was emergency C-section. The 2nd we had natural, the 3rd again an emergency C-section. We anticipated natural childbirth in all 3, but it was not to be...
                                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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