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Free community college?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    That's why I'm all for high schools focusing more on vocational tech programs. It's a waste of people's time and money to prep them for college when they can't handle it when they could be getting trained for a career that will still allow them to make a decent living.
    From what I understand,
    It used to be the case in the U.S. that there were not just separate programs but separate schools for college preparation vs other.

    Typically everyone went to an elementary school for about 3 years to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic.
    After which you either:

    1) went to a grammar school, which prepared you for college admission, or
    2) you went to an "academy" to get a bit more general ed without the same rigor and without plans to go on to college, or
    3) you went straight from elementary into productive work or a tech/voc training or apprenticeship or some such thing.


    As time passed, the "academies" shortened in length, and shifted to older students, (as elementary school stretched longer and the average age of college entrants increased), and transformed into modern "high schools".
    As colleges/universities wanted access to a larger customer base, they began dumbing-down their admission requirements so as to admit academy students. So then over time grammar schools disappeared.

    And option (3) was eliminated by the creation of truancy laws.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
      But I sure as heck after our pay goes up would not mind paying higher taxes to make something like this happen.
      Politically that is never the issue. You would always be able to pay what you want (donating directly to the cause you desire or donating to the government) without requiring you be taxed more. The question of higher taxes is never "Are you willing to pay more?", but always, "Are you willing to force everyone else to pay more?"

      It's not exactly what you are saying, but I'm just annoyed with so often seeing people say they are voting for a tax increase because they are willing to pay it. Anyone who votes for (or otherwise supports) a tax increase for that reason is either a selfish jerk or hasn't logically thought through what it is they are doing.

      (I guess the same could be generalized to anyone who supports a law for the reason that they themselves are willing to obey it--like someone who wants to ban speech they don't like, justifying their support of the ban because they themselves are fine with obeying the ban. Freedom for me, not for thee.)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
        No one more than me would like to see high schools stop sending ill-prepared students to college. But that's just what they've been doing, and will continue to do unless and until they're fixed. Something's got to be done with those students, too. You can't push them back into high school for a do-over, and even though they provide additional prep courses, regular universities mostly fail them out.
        I doubt that anybody (at least in a position of power) will admit that the schools are broken because this would require a whole lot of people to admit they really screwed up (lots of them having D's and R's next to their names). Of course, I don't think they are just sending kids into college ill-prepared, but into life ill-prepared. To me, it ends up ranging from an annoyance to sometimes being a hindrance. I've received a few e mails that I've seriously had to ask what in the world they were talking about because it was written that poorly, having to explain some of the written material to them, or having to go over the hand full of math things we sometimes have to do (which isn't all that often and is basic stuff that a pre-algebra student should be able to do). Not having the ability to write at a decent level, not being able to read about a high school level, and having poor math skills is going to cause a lot of them issues their entire life, regardless if they go to college or not. Fixing it and doing something about those that have already gone though the system is a much harder problem. I'd go with a voluntary program, where if these young adults want to 'catch up' to where they should be, than it should be offered free or at least at a very low cost to the end user. This would also require a permit fix to our schools, so these programs would no longer be needed. I know none of this will ever happen, just because

        That's where community colleges come in. They're as cheap to run or cheaper than high schools, unfortunately because they rely heavily on adjuncts who are better qualified than high school teachers but far less well paid and receive no benefits, but also fortunately because they're filled with slightly older students who don't do as much damage to the physical plant. Teenagers make for roving disaster areas, and it's a lot tougher for a high school to get rid of a problem student.
        I don't think it has to do with qualifications. I knew how to read, my ABC's, and writing them out before I entered kindergarten because my parents took them time to teach me these things. They were not qualified teachers, but they still were able to teach their daughter some stuff, so I don't think qualification is much of an issue as the issue rest in other areas. Which I believe you touch on part of the problem in your above post, high schools have problem students, which suck up teacher's time, which equals less time for students and results in students all around getting poorer instruction. In college (rather this be a 4 year school or a community college), you are there because you want to be there and if you cause problems, you disappear. I ended up enjoying my college classes far more because it was actually full of instruction time, without having to deal with somebody 'acting up'. This problem is more difficult because I think it is due to the thought process that school is just a free baby sitting service, to keep your kids out of your hair, so mom and dad can go to work or do whatever in the world they want to do while their kids are at school. If the parents don't really care what they are doing, why should they?

        Hmm, I wonder if that might become a problem, though. If the community colleges are legally obligated to provide them with two years of education ... that might translate into a right to be re-admitted. It'd be a good idea to watch how that would be regulated, assuming of course that the current congress does anything with it, which is highly unlikely .. unless Obama changes his mind next week and comes out opposing it.
        I can see that being a problem, but I considering how badly the public high schools are screwed up (private schools and home schooled kids have often outperformed their public school peers), I don't think I'd want the government overly involved higher up in education to begin with. We should fix what is broken before we try to 'fix' what seems to work a lot better.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seanD View Post
          Community college is basically already free (at least here in California). They have grants, work programs, tuition exemptions, waivers to get your books until you get your grant money, etc. Free community college (whatever that even means to Obama) won't give anyone anymore incentive to learn than it does now.
          When I was in high school (which was over a decade ago now), our local community college had a thing that if you were a high school student, it was one dollar per credit hour to take a course at their school. I did manage to take a few courses, this way, but as I think back on it a bit more; I should have taken more.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            How do you feel about the "skin in the game" aspect, Jesse?

            Do you think the student will take for granted their education, and not work as hard or be as committed if they're not paying for it? Or do you think that's not really a factor?
            The one thing that I enjoy far more about the college level is that only those who want to be there; are there. I can remember hours upon hours of school time being wasted on 'problem students' who didn't want to be there, but were forced to be there anyway. True, they were throwing away their life to under-performance and a series of low paying, low skill jobs that will keep them on the bottom rungs for a long time (if not the rest of their life), but it is their life and if they want to throw it away... that is their own fault.
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • #36
              The whole problem here is that whenever the government says "free", it's really not free. So who's going to pay for this "free" community college? Ironically, it's the very people Obama claims to want to help: the middle class.

              Source: Forbes

              After the tax law change (which was made permanent in 2006), amounts withdrawn to pay for college were totally tax free. 529 plans thus became a kind of Roth IRA for college savings–you didn’t get any up front tax break (except maybe on your state income tax), but you could rest assured that your college nest egg’s growth would face no taxation when it came time to make tuition payments.

              The Obama plan aims to turn back the clock, once again taxing earnings growth in 529 plans as ordinary income. This is a direct and clear tax increase on middle class families sacrificing to save for college, and it’s likely to result in a mass divestment from this type of savings.

              The 2001 tax law change which the Obama budget repeals resulted in an explosion of mass participation in 529 plans. According to the College Savings Network, taxpayers responded to the changes virtually overnight. Assets in 529 plans doubled from 2001 to 2002 (from $13 billion to $26 billion) and began their fast march to the quarter-trillion dollar level we see today. The total number of accounts grew from 2.4 million in 2001 to 4.4 million just a year later in 2002. There’s every reason to believe that taxpayers will snap back almost as quickly.

              http://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanelli...ollege-savers/

              © Copyright Original Source

              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                Believe me I know, Tuition was free, but it still wasn't "free" between gas, food, books, medical, etc....by no means was it free. I was, and most were lucky enough to get free tuition, extras were other costs, It would have been easier if those costs had something to offset them other than a loan (which wasn't available) then again...... still if it would cover any kind of "room and board" allowance gee it would be nice.
                I don't think Obama is going to pay for people's gas, room and board. And pell grants do pay for books and supplies.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  The whole problem here is that whenever the government says "free", it's really not free. So who's going to pay for this "free" community college? Ironically, it's the very people Obama claims to want to help: the middle class.
                  And don't forget about the college system and who stocks the professorships - liberals. So, the leftist agenda will continue to be pushed in academia and even more at the taxpayer's expense than before.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    And don't forget about the college system and who stocks the professorships - liberals. So, the leftist agenda will continue to be pushed in academia and even more at the taxpayer's expense than before.
                    It's also probably a ploy by the democrats to get another democrat elected as president. Obama will "work" on getting this a reality, but I am betting it will take just long enough that it won't quite be finished before the next election. Then the democrats will say, don't let the Republicans derail this program! The only way to get it to happen is to elect another democrat!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Joel View Post
                      From what I understand,
                      It used to be the case in the U.S. that there were not just separate programs but separate schools for college preparation vs other.

                      Typically everyone went to an elementary school for about 3 years to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic.
                      After which you either:

                      1) went to a grammar school, which prepared you for college admission, or
                      2) you went to an "academy" to get a bit more general ed without the same rigor and without plans to go on to college, or
                      3) you went straight from elementary into productive work or a tech/voc training or apprenticeship or some such thing.


                      As time passed, the "academies" shortened in length, and shifted to older students, (as elementary school stretched longer and the average age of college entrants increased), and transformed into modern "high schools".
                      As colleges/universities wanted access to a larger customer base, they began dumbing-down their admission requirements so as to admit academy students. So then over time grammar schools disappeared.

                      And option (3) was eliminated by the creation of truancy laws.
                      One reason why options that divergent may be seen as undesirable is the pressure placed on students to make such life-altering decisions so early. A student who may not find their stride until their teenage years should still at least have an option to prepare for university, which is why I think vo-tech programs run concurrently with other schools seem to work best - where students still take at least some classes on the normal campus with other students. Despite logistical challenges I find this to be the best hedge against shoehorning students onto certain paths at an inappropriately early time.

                      Having said that, I am curious how apprenticeship might play out in today's culture, at least as a thought experiment.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                        Having said that, I am curious how apprenticeship might play out in today's culture, at least as a thought experiment.
                        Dear, my pharm tech license was obtained via apprenticeship like learning. Also proffessional piercers and tattoo artists are still trained via apprentice routes.
                        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                        George Bernard Shaw

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                          Dear, my pharm tech license was obtained via apprenticeship like learning. Also proffessional piercers and tattoo artists are still trained via apprentice routes.
                          I know, but joel was talking about people who drop out of the school system right after elementary school to go into apprenticeships.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            One reason why options that divergent may be seen as undesirable is the pressure placed on students to make such life-altering decisions so early.
                            I can understand that concern.
                            Some possible counter points:

                            1) College and its preparation were high quality, rigorous, and difficult. And college preparation took time--could take 6 to 7 years of serious training. There was no real way around the need to focus ones efforts on that for years. Dabbling in that training while mostly focusing on voc/tech training would not cut it. If you don't do it sooner, you have to do it later.

                            2) You could do it later, I think. Today's schools are pretty regimented by age segregation. Ages and grades are strongly associated. I think that used to be much less so. Students would be in elementary school as few or as many years as needed to master the material. College preparation could be started later if desired. I think students were categorized by their advancement through the course and not really by age. (Though of course there would be trends.) So less need to shoehorn at a specific age.

                            3) On the other hand, if you have only so much time as a minor during which your parents will pay for your education/room/board, you must choose somewhat earlier rather than later (or do it later in spare time while supporting yourself). There is not enough time as a minor to do all options. A student spread too broad will tend to be a mediocrity in all.

                            (And some would argue that typical schooling today is already too broad. C. S. Lewis wrote, “In those days a boy on the classical side officially did almost nothing but classics. I think this was wise; the greatest service we can do to education today is to teach fewer subjects. No one has time to do more than a very few things well before he is twenty, and when we force a boy to be a mediocrity in a dozen subjects, we destroy his standards, perhaps for life.” Surprised By Joy, chapter 7.)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Joel View Post
                              Politically that is never the issue. You would always be able to pay what you want (donating directly to the cause you desire or donating to the government) without requiring you be taxed more. The question of higher taxes is never "Are you willing to pay more?", but always, "Are you willing to force everyone else to pay more?"

                              It's not exactly what you are saying, but I'm just annoyed with so often seeing people say they are voting for a tax increase because they are willing to pay it. Anyone who votes for (or otherwise supports) a tax increase for that reason is either a selfish jerk or hasn't logically thought through what it is they are doing.

                              (I guess the same could be generalized to anyone who supports a law for the reason that they themselves are willing to obey it--like someone who wants to ban speech they don't like, justifying their support of the ban because they themselves are fine with obeying the ban. Freedom for me, not for thee.)
                              Do you really legitimately believe that those who vote for specific social laws are selfish and incapable of reasoning or unable to look at the laws and decide for themselves what is the best fit model?
                              Also, currently there are multiple foundation and grant modes, which are excellent and wonderful many of them also involve politics as to who is able to get them. The qualified applicant is picked, but many of them must also have a relative, friend or someone else who is capable of getting "in" with a reccomendation. This is in and of itself a problem. As a country we have multiple freedoms, which is wonderful, but with those freedoms is a high price to pay, it is rarer to find a ground up worker, most people must have someone who is willing to be an investor, or someone to help them monetarily. The poor have little hope or no hope in some cases. In this much we are WAY behind other places. Ignoring the problems doesn't make them go away. It just means they are ignored.
                              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                              George Bernard Shaw

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                I don't think Obama is going to pay for people's gas, room and board. And pell grants do pay for books and supplies.
                                LOL no, me neither. What would be interesting to see, is community college students receiving an extended or larger pell grant that covers more than just books and tuition In some states its just tuition depending on the place. Some places have working model that off sets the pell and allows a larger grant which helps with expenses. To get there though would require a major overhaul, One that is largely impractical and would certainly suck for lobbyists, wall street, and many other unnecessary tax dollar expenditures. The likelyhood of that however is..... meh
                                A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                                George Bernard Shaw

                                Comment

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