Ethnic Cleansing by Christians in CAR

[Adrift]

Ok, I was trying to clarify that I see a difference between prosperity theology and a prosperity gospel, I don't agree with the first but it is orthodox, and but when it is part of the gospel it is heresy. And I agree wit you aboht Kingdom Now theology. But I fear I've belabored the point.

No, its okay. I think this is a topic that's worth discussing. Probably not in this thread, but we can't deny that something is going on in the southern hemisphere as far as these topics are concerned. Its important to this discussion I think, but maybe we should start a new thread in Christianity 201 discussing these issues. In past experiences I assumed that charismatic evangelistic views were not entirely welcomed around here, but that was before the recent turnover. Honestly, its refreshing to see that Raphael leans towards this view (I should have picked up on it before now). I'm not sure its a view that I, myself, entirely support, but I think there's something to it.

[Raphael]

Yeah, that was a bit of a backhand compliment, wasn't it. By "some extent" I'm referring more to the runaway stuff I mentioned in the post previous to this one.

I know I just could let the line past without making a comment.

[Cow Poke]

So?

So buttons on your underwear! (it only works when spoken, not typed. )

I mean, I hate how blunt that sounds, but does that lessen the fact that this is still an issue?

It's like the thing Firstfloor did with the transgendered black prostitute who was actually run over accidentally by an old guy who wasn't wearing his glasses - that's not a very good "poster child" for the point you're trying to make.

Honestly, when I first saw this, I thought it was one of those stupid Young Turk videos, but it wasn't that goofy.

Yeah, I had to read the article, and the fact that he addresses "right wingers" shows his bias...

There's still something behind this, and it seems to me that its still important that Christians are aware of it if it really is an issue, and I don't see any reason to suspect it isn't an issue that can be addressed (maybe).

It appears to be more a military issue, as this is more of the tribal warfare that plagues Africa.

Again, that naivety thing kicks in with me, so feel free to call me out if need be (be gentle ).

So, what, for example, do you propose Christians do about this? What are you, personally, planning to do? (And that's gentle -- not an accusation, simply a question (or two) -- what good does it do to talk about this if there's not an action plan to actually do something?)

What do you suppose needs done, and who needs to do it?

[rogue06]

But you do agree that this is something that should be talked about, and hopefully somehow addressed, don't you? We've all heard of the growing charismatic movement in Africa, and along with it reports of witch burnings. What if some of the biggest names in the charismatic movement went to Africa and addressed these issues to some of the more popular African Christian leaders, and tried to get this issue snuffed out. This seems doable within Christianity (assuming they're holding to some vague form of orthodoxy). It doesn't have to be about who is the better or badder religion.

Just read something about the murder of supposed witches this morning. It seems that the problem is especially bad in India and is very common among the Dalits (popularly known as the "untouchables") and other minority communities and is, probably not surprisingly, more of a problem in rural areas than urban ones. According to statistics compiled by the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB -- and a part of India's Ministry of Home Affairs) between 2000 and 2012 there were 2097 murders committed where witch hunting was the motive. The victims are generally accused of possessing an evil eye or mouth, cannibalism, destroying crops and cattle, and causing illness.

As for the situation in Africa, the story mentioned a poll conducted in 18 sub-Saharan countries in 2010 which found that half of those polled believe in magic of some form. The interim president of the Central African Republic (CAR) Catherine Samba-Panza is on the record as saying "witchcraft is real." Interestingly the witches are often hunted by local doctors and witchdoctors (sort of ironic) and those accused are often hacked to death with machetes or burned alive.

[Adrift]

So buttons on your underwear! (it only works when spoken, not typed. )



It's like the thing Firstfloor did with the transgendered black prostitute who was actually run over accidentally by an old guy who wasn't wearing his glasses - that's not a very good "poster child" for the point you're trying to make.



Yeah, I had to read the article, and the fact that he addresses "right wingers" shows his bias...



It appears to be more a military issue, as this is more of the tribal warfare that plagues Africa.



So, what, for example, do you propose Christians do about this? What are you, personally, planning to do? (And that's gentle -- not an accusation, simply a question (or two) -- what good does it do to talk about this if there's not an action plan to actually do something?)

What do you suppose needs done, and who needs to do it?

One of the criticisms I often hear about the Muslim bombings and shootings is "how come all of the moderate Muslims aren't speaking out on this!" I think two things can be accomplished. 1.) I think it'd be amazing if charismatic leaders that Africans respect, like Reinhard Bonnke, actually went to Africa, and condemned these things in person. Hopefully if enough Christian leaders are vocal about this it'll get through to those who are committing the offences. After all, it was the work of missionaries like Bonnke that led them to call themselves Christian in the first place. 2.) If this is brought up as a major concern in our local churches, and we spoke up loudly about it here, the media would have little ground to say that we aren't speaking out on it as they do for moderate Muslims. So we nip that in the bud.

I don't think this is a military action issue. Or if it is, its not only a military action issue. This seems to be an endemic issue in Africa, and not specific to tiny subgroups. Its an education issue at its core. One of the biggest critiques of missionaries in Africa is that they're giving them the very basics of the Gospel, and then not providing any leadership.

What can I do about it personally? I can study out the specifics of the issue. Then I can ask leadership at my church if they're aware of it. Maybe just alerting people in leadership positions can get the ball rolling.

[KingsGambit]

One of the biggest critiques of missionaries in Africa is that they're giving them the very basics of the Gospel, and then not providing any leadership.

I think part of the solution may be spending more time in individual locations, which does mean covering less ground. John Wesley would never evangelize in a place where he knew he wouldn't have enough time to set up stable leadership for after he went. I think he was right.

[Raphael]

Just read something about the murder of supposed witches this morning. It seems that the problem is especially bad in India and is very common among the Dalits (popularly known as the "untouchables") and other minority communities and is, probably not surprisingly, more of a problem in rural areas than urban ones. According to statistics compiled by the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB -- and a part of India's Ministry of Home Affairs) between 2000 and 2012 there were 2097 murders committed where witch hunting was the motive. The victims are generally accused of possessing an evil eye or mouth, cannibalism, destroying crops and cattle, and causing illness.

As for the situation in Africa, the story mentioned a poll conducted in 18 sub-Saharan countries in 2010 which found that half of those polled believe in magic of some form. The interim president of the Central African Republic (CAR) Catherine Samba-Panza is on the record as saying "witchcraft is real." Interestingly the witches are often hunted by local doctors and witchdoctors (sort of ironic) and those accused are often hacked to death with machetes or burned alive.

I believe some of the Sangomas (witch doctors) in Southern Africa wield real power and that the source of it is demonic in origin.

[Cow Poke]

What can I do about it personally? I can study out the specifics of the issue. Then I can ask leadership at my church if they're aware of it. Maybe just alerting people in leadership positions can get the ball rolling.

I guess I'm a bit more pragmatic than that. I know there's a snowball's chance in heck of anything I do or say impacting the actual situation in central Africa. I CAN, however, be involved with homeless and hungry people in my community, and do things like our car clinic and jobs for life and faith mission.

It sure sounds noble to want to be concerned about matters in far away lands, and I don't mean to be cold-hearted, but there are thousands of situations all over the world that we could discuss and learn more about and talk about HOPING that some ball will get rolling.

We only have so much time and energy, and I guess I just choose to use mine where it can honestly reasonably make an impact.

[Adrift]

I guess I'm a bit more pragmatic than that. I know there's a snowball's chance in heck of anything I do or say impacting the actual situation in central Africa. I CAN, however, be involved with homeless and hungry people in my community, and do things like our car clinic and jobs for life and faith mission.

It sure sounds noble to want to be concerned about matters in far away lands, and I don't mean to be cold-hearted, but there are thousands of situations all over the world that we could discuss and learn more about and talk about HOPING that some ball will get rolling.

We only have so much time and energy, and I guess I just choose to use mine where it can honestly reasonably make an impact.

I find this attitude very negative, and I'm honestly surprised to hear you expressing it. We might as well call back all of our international missionaries if you really do think this way. Ignoring parts of the body that aren't in our immediate vicinity sounds like a good way to lose them. We shouldn't then be surprised when non-Christians point to us, and say "how come no one is speaking out on this!"

[Jedidiah]

I find this attitude very negative, and I'm honestly surprised to hear you expressing it. We might as well call back all of our international missionaries if you really do think this way. Ignoring parts of the body that aren't in our immediate vicinity sounds like a good way to lose them. We shouldn't then be surprised when non-Christians point to us, and say "how come no one is speaking out on this!"

"Bloom where you are planted," (the cliche for CP's post) is a far cry from recalling missionaries. I support both local missions and foreign ones.

[Cow Poke]

I find this attitude very negative, and I'm honestly surprised to hear you expressing it. We might as well call back all of our international missionaries if you really do think this way.

No, that's something I CAN do something about -- our Church supports the Southern Baptist Missions program, raising money and awareness, and even sponsoring missionaries who are NOT supported by the "Cooperative Program" of the Southern Baptist Convention. Plus, I have made numerous trips to Haiti, sponsoring both a medical clinic and an orphanage, because that's another thing I CAN reasonably do.

Ignoring parts of the body that aren't in our immediate vicinity sounds like a good way to lose them.

You're getting just a tad carried away, brother... we support LOTS of mission efforts, but ones we can actually effectively minister to.

We shouldn't then be surprised when non-Christians point to us, and say "how come no one is speaking out on this!"

Adrift, brother... you are totally free to carry on a rallying cry for central Africa -- go for it! It's just not on my heart and I'm not going to pretend it is. Meanwhile, my itty bitty Church has actually paid for seminary for FOUR missionaries who are on the misison field right now.

It's a matter of being good stewards with time and resources.

I'm a little disappointed that you'd see me as having a "very negative" attitude toward missions. Central Africa just doesn't happen to be it.

[Pentecost]

I can see why Adrift drew his conclusions based purely on what you said using a phrase like "more pragmatic" gives the implication that missions is in some way discounted.

[Cow Poke]

I can see why Adrift drew his conclusions based purely on what you said using a phrase like "more pragmatic" gives the implication that missions is in some way discounted.

Yeah, but I thought Adrift was a little more aware of my history from posting on situations.

Thanks, Pent!

[Adrift]

Here is an interesting story about a Christian pastor named David, doing what he could. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...db6_story.html

It looks like some church leaders have addressed the issue as best they can,

“We do not accept the labelling of Anti-Balaka as ‘Christian’ militia,” they wrote. “The Anti-Balaka is the expression of exasperation with the ongoing atrocities from a part of the population – mainly young men – which witnessed multiple abuses by Séléka rebels. However, we reiterate that all Anti-Balaka are not Christians and that all Christians are not Anti-Balaka. It is the same for ex-Séléka members and Muslims.”

Catholic and Protestant leaders also urged national and international media to stop referring to the Anti-Balaka as a Christian militia. In their declaration, the Church leaders noted that although the temptation for revenge is great, Christians should retain their principles in their political, economic and social engagements.

https://www.worldwatchmonitor.org/2014/02/3006685/

[Epoetker]

Catholic and Protestant leaders also urged national and international media to stop referring to the Anti-Balaka as a Christian militia. In their declaration, the Church leaders noted that although the temptation for revenge is great, Christians should retain their principles in their political, economic and social engagements.

Killing off belligerents is duty, not revenge. The Church has lost authority to speak for Christians on this issue because its leaders have departed from reality.