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Duke U - Muslim Students at Duke to Begin Weekly Call-to-Prayer

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
    You're usually better at keeping the goalposts fixed.

    From here:



    To here:



    "Cannot" is not "cannot have."

    And if you're setting the bar on "can" for logical fallacies, the fact, if it is a fact, that never-muslim non-muslims were historically executed for apostasy does not mean that it can happen today, any more than the fact, which is unquestionably a fact, that belonging to a different strain of Christianity resulted in torture and execution during the Inquisitions means it could lead to comparable punishments for modern Christians.

    Just as well for you, I'm thinking.
    Apples and oranges. The Inquisition is centuries past its prime, while death sentences for apostasy still pop up in the news today. And I appreciate your attempt to accuse me of moving the goalposts rather than defend your poor logic. I'll take that as an attempt to deflect attention from your poor logic, since the goalposts I set are still perfectly acceptable, having never been moved (though you may have misinterpreted their initial placement).
    Not that "can" is the right bar in any case. The right bar is whether it would happen with any reasonable likelihood.

    "Less likely" is better, but still invidious in its understatement. It simply won't, in the same sense a plane won't fall out of the sky and crush a New York skyscraper this afternoon. It's a formerly reasonable concern that's unreasonable today, and if promoted today could reasonably be ascribed to Islamophobic fear-mongering that only serves to distract the conversation from more valid concerns.
    I'm frankly skeptical that the future is brighter in this regard. Europe is rapidly becoming Muslim despite its current non-Muslim majority, and our current leader is more known for bowing to Muslim leaders than standing up to them.

    I would love to share your unconcern. In case you hadn't noticed, Muslim attacks have rather proliferated in recent times (despite attempts by authorities to categorize them as "lone wolf" attacks or instances of "workplace violence").
    Today in the news, a Saudi blogger has been granted a one-week reprieve from his next set of 50 lashes for insulting Islam because the first set of 50 from last week hasn't healed sufficiently. So he's holding at 50 down, 950 to go, in addition to the 10-year jail sentence.
    Your link says nothing of a reprieve, not that a one-week reprieve is anything exceptional. Color me more impressed that a Muslim is protesting the sentence.
    Islam is in need of a reformation.
    Agreed, though as a non-Muslim I really have no say in that.
    While protests against public broadcast of the adhan may fail to advance that, claims that a non-muslim recitation of the adhan can lead to execution do even less, as they fail to provide meaningful criticism of the public broadcast.

    As ever, Jesse
    I never claimed that my allegation would provide a meaningful criticism of the public broadcast.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #32
      As to whether Islam is in need of a reformation: I sense a disconnect between what is generally stated to be in America's interests and what is in the interests of the gospel. Harsh Islam critic Robert Spencer calls for the US government to push moderate Islam above, while he does his best to discredit it by popularly interpreting it in a most non-moderate manner. I don't think it's the Christian's job to try to water down Islam; that is really a pro-Islam apologetic enterprise.

      I think the one thing that might salvage reformation efforts is a general call for human rights (like the Saudi blogger getting lashes).
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #33
        Christians should worry less about reforming Islam and worry more about reforming the West. If the West was still a healthy civilization as opposed to a shambling liberal corpse sheer terror of being stomped into the ground would force Islam to reform.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Congratulations. In a Muslim ruled country, you can now be considered Muslim (and be prosecuted for apostasy if you deny that).
          s/pros/ex/p
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

          Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by phank View Post
            Yes, I know. The point I was trying to make is that the Christian call to prayer can be heard for miles, and in fact the bells are atop a huge tower for that very purpose. The proposed Muslim amplification wasn't nearly so widely audible. But nobody seems to complain about the bells.
            The rub is that there are significant cultural and religious differences between church bells and a Muslim call to prayer.
            Last edited by Mountain Man; 01-18-2015, 09:05 AM.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I'll take that as an attempt to deflect attention from your poor logic ...
              That's got to be a reference to this:

              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
              In any case, I bear witness that it is not true.
              That's not a logical proposition, piglet. That's a riff off the shahada:
              I bear witness that there is no God but God, and Muhammad hated garlic.

              Or something like that. Maybe it was Danish cartoonists.

              We were talking about the shahada, remember? You posted the claim that my posting of the shahada within the context of translating the adhan put me at risk of being executed as a muslim apostate.

              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Congratulations. In a Muslim ruled country, you can now be considered Muslim (and be prosecuted for apostasy if you deny that).
              To which claim, I responded "bullcrap." To which "bullcrap" response, you went on to shuffle your feet with chocolate across your face claiming somebody else had been in that cookie jar.

              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Ya know, I might have gotten that from sources who were actually living in "Muslim-ruled" countries who actually encountered that.
              No worries. I've still got cookies.

              Or maybe it was that it "could" be true, that I "could" be at risk of prosecution and execution as a muslim apostate because ... "stuff" done by Ottomans ...

              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Under the Ottomans, however, dhimmis had no such resources, and stuff like that did happen. Wearing Muslim clothing put one at risk of being deemed a Muslim. Someone alleging that you'd said a Muslim prayer was sometimes sufficient cause to deem you a Muslim.
              ... who you insist are apples and oranges with the Inquisitors, because unlike the Ottoman excesses, the excesses of the Inquisitions were centuries in the past ...

              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Apples and oranges. The Inquisition is centuries past its prime ...
              ... running the field with non-muslim westerners before reaching into the bench for some muslim linemen ...

              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              ... while death sentences for apostasy still pop up in the news today.
              But that's not shifting the goalposts, again, right?

              Uh-hroom. You know the rule about extrication from the hole you're digging?










              *He actually did hate garlic, according to quite a few hadith. And according to the hadith, he actually did order the execution of a comic who lampooned him, too.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Your link says nothing of a reprieve, not that a one-week reprieve is anything exceptional. Color me more impressed that a Muslim is protesting the sentence.
                Saudi blogger links to a synopsis of the most current, reliable information I had at the time. I didn't link to information I'd seen about the reprieve because it was from less reliable sources, which, as it turns out, were inaccurate or had not been substantiated. The actual source of information on the reprieve was his sister, not his wife, as I'd read; there is no confirmation that the reprieve was granted for medical reasons; and the length of the reprieve is yet to be determined.

                Not that I doubt his sister, but her information can't be any more accurate than the information she was given. I suspect the appeal from the UN high commissioner for human rights was the real reason, and the health issue given to his sister was a fig leaf. And no, it doesn't hurt that the current high commissioner is a muslim, though it's not accurate to ascribe the protest to him individually, or as related to his religious beliefs.

                As ever, Jesse

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                  Today in the news, a Saudi blogger has been granted a one-week reprieve from his next set of 50 lashes for insulting Islam because the first set of 50 from last week hasn't healed sufficiently. So he's holding at 50 down, 950 to go, in addition to the 10-year jail sentence.
                  I had read (just yesterday) that during a review they whacked on another 5 because he hasn't recanted yet....but I can't find the source anymore.
                  "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                  -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                  Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                  1 Corinthians 16:13

                  "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                  -Ben Witherington III

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