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Duke U - Muslim Students at Duke to Begin Weekly Call-to-Prayer

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Ten times. At least that's what the doctor told a friend of mine after his mental breakdown when he got smart and responded "Do you want them listed alphabetically, categorically or chronologically?" when asked if he had ever taken any illegal drugs.


    I have to admit I liked that response so much that I've used it a number of times for different things, but then in case you haven't noticed I'm a bit of a smartass myself.
    Reminds me of Gibbs asking, "when you say sunset --- you mean civil, nautical or astronomical?"

    (technically, though, those would be twilight, not sunset)
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
      Ya know, folks who haven't spent much time in "Muslim-ruled" countries might even believe that.
      Ya know, I might have gotten that from sources who were actually living in "Muslim-ruled" countries who actually encountered that.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Ya know, I might have gotten that from sources who were actually living in "Muslim-ruled" countries who actually encountered that.
        And maybe you believed them because it didn't fall afoul of your preconceptions. But certainly, anyone telling you differently was lying, and you should have known better than to have believed them, even without having been there.

        Think about it:

        A non-muslim westerner being threatened with execution for apostasy from Islam. International incidents make for international news. We'd have heard about that.

        In any case, I bear witness that it is not true.

        I learned the adhan in a "Muslim-ruled" country — from a brother of the prime minister, in fact. This was no ersatz muslim. He had four moms. He taught me how they pray, too, starting with wudu, along with just enough Arabic to be able to transliterate the Qur'an even if I have to use a dictionary to understand the words.

        And ya know, nobody suggested any of that made me a muslim. As backward as their beliefs may be, they take them just as seriously as you take yours. They're no more likely to misread my recitation of the shahada within the adhan then you would be to misread my recitation of the "sinner's prayer" in a TWeb thread, or whatever equivalent you might consider.

        Without intention, none of that matters.

        That's not to say they don't kill their own for apostasy. They do. And it's just as wicked according to my sensibilities as it is to yours. Spreading exaggerations on that crime for effect just gives them an easy reason to dismiss you as an Islamophobe. They take their sacred texts even more seriously than Christians do. The Qur'an is their "resurrection," their principle miracle. It's a lot shorter than the Bible, and lots of them know it by heart:
        And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know it.
        Surat Al-Baqarah, Ayah 42

        Don't go there.

        Comment


        • #19
          Looks like Duke had a change of heart.

          http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...all-to-prayer/
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Looks like Duke had a change of heart.

            http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...all-to-prayer/
            Since lao will be skeptical because of the source here is a report from a local news outlet, WNCN -- an NBC-affiliate in Goldsboro, North Carolina (a bit over an hour southeast of Duke):

            Source: Duke bows to pressure, cancels weekly Muslim call to prayer



            Duke University has canceled its plans to have a Muslim prayer announcement broadcast from Duke Chapel's belltower on Friday afternoons.

            The university announced its plans to facilitate a weekly call to prayer; but on Thursday, Duke officials acknowledged the decision resulted in unintended backlash. A Duke official told WNCN the school changed its mind after it was "presented with some significant and credible concerns about safety and security."

            "The idea was conceived with the best of intentions and the greatest of intentions to create unity," said Michael Schoenfeld, vice president for public affairs and government relations. "It turned out to have the opposite effect and it was actually creating divisiveness that was neither intended nor valuable."

            The initial plan was to broadcast a weekly call to prayer from the chapel's bell tower starting Jan. 16. The prayer service would then take place in the chapel basement.

            The university said it will instead welcome members of the Muslim community to gather on the quadrangle outside the chapel, before moving to its regular location in the chapel basement.

            "They apparently bent to pressure. It's a slap in the face to Muslims, not just to the students there but to the Muslim community of Raleigh and to Muslims in general," said Khalilah Sabra, with the Muslim American Society. "At this time, we should be trying to build something together."

            The chant was intended to announce the start of the Duke Muslim Student Association's prayer service, which the Muslim chaplain at Duke said "brings Muslims back to their purpose in life." However after the school announced the weekly broadcast, the university's Facebook page was flooded with angry comments.

            One commenter said they had "totally lost respect for Duke University."

            Another said that the university is a "... center for political correctness," and that it's "just plain bizarre that [they are] going to do an Islamic call to prayer."

            The plan also drew the ire of evangelist Franklin Graham, who urged Duke alumni to withhold support because of violence against Christians that he attributed to Muslims.

            Graham told WNCN he felt the school "was making a huge mistake."

            "First of all, this chapel was given by donors, Methodists, from across this state and other areas, so that there would be a Christian chapel on the campus so that the students would have a place to worship the God of the Bible," Graham said. "What I have the problem is using the chapel that was built to be a house of worship -- to worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God -- that they're using this now so that they can put loud speakers and use it as a minaret."

            Graham is the head of Samaritan's Purse and the son of evangelical Billy Graham. He said other religions "are getting front row and Christians are being pushed ... to the back of the room."



            Source

            Story continues at link above

            © Copyright Original Source


            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              This policy change has had wide publication. But the change only applies to the amplification, not to the ceremony.

              Maybe the Muslim community could agree on a specific bell chime sequence? They DO ring those bells for religious ceremonies, don't they?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Since lao will be skeptical because of the source here is a report from a local news outlet, WNCN -- an NBC-affiliate in Goldsboro, North Carolina (a bit over an hour southeast of Duke):
                In point of fact, I don't much care for NBC, or any other broadcast source, either. Here's a better one.

                Amid Threats, Duke Moves Muslim Call to Prayer
                Duke University has canceled plans for Muslim students to sound the traditional call to prayer from the school’s iconic chapel tower amid threats of violence and a backlash from anti-Muslim groups, conservatives and Christian leaders.

                They didn't cancel the call. They moved it to the quad. Previously, it had been given in the service itself, which has been going on for years. NBC and Breitbart somehow missed those tiny little details.

                There's a great deal more background information there as well, including a subtle point that deserves elaboration.
                Under the plan, first a male student would chant in Arabic, then a female student would read an English translation. A small set of speakers would be set up to amplify the call so that people at the base of the skyscraper-like tower could hear it. The procedure was developed after months of discussion among religious-life officials at the university, scholars and students.

                I'm somewhat surprised they allowed a woman to take part in the adhan at all, even indirectly, due to the prohibition on the female singing voice in Islam. They're extremely touchy about exposing their women's voices, at least in religious contexts. In everyday life, though, they're far more diverse.

                My female Saudi students, for instance, include the most conservative muslim students I've taught. About half of the hijabis do not shake hands with men, including a student I met for the first time Tuesday night. Bright as a whip though, and a real help with the female Russian student next to her I quickly identified with a learning disability.

                Yet two of her compatriots from last term had jumped me with a group hug just an hour earlier, including "Lulu," who's always in a mini-skirt. These are Saudi citizens. These are muslims. You have to be a muslim to be a citizen.

                And no, they can't drive.

                You can't trust your preconceptions with these people. There's widespread misinformation, and even if you're diligent about maintaining skepticism, you'll be caught having bought into something that sounded reasonable on its face, something that seemed consistent with other things you'd checked, but turns out to be untrue. There are inconsistencies in their practices and beliefs you'll never guess, that you can't know about unless you've been there and done that.

                As ever, Jesse

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by phank View Post
                  This policy change has had wide publication. But the change only applies to the amplification, not to the ceremony.

                  Maybe the Muslim community could agree on a specific bell chime sequence? They DO ring those bells for religious ceremonies, don't they?
                  While that may seem a reasonable compromise, it's not practical. The adhan is their version of church bells, but it's not church bells. It may not be a pillar of Islam, but it's as emblematic of their worship as the Lord's prayer is to Christians, and no more amenable to substitution.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Since lao will be skeptical because of the source...
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                      And maybe you believed them because it didn't fall afoul of your preconceptions. But certainly, anyone telling you differently was lying, and you should have known better than to have believed them, even without having been there.

                      Think about it:

                      A non-muslim westerner being threatened with execution for apostasy from Islam. International incidents make for international news. We'd have heard about that.

                      In any case, I bear witness that it is not true.

                      I learned the adhan in a "Muslim-ruled" country — from a brother of the prime minister, in fact. This was no ersatz muslim. He had four moms. He taught me how they pray, too, starting with wudu, along with just enough Arabic to be able to transliterate the Qur'an even if I have to use a dictionary to understand the words.

                      And ya know, nobody suggested any of that made me a muslim. As backward as their beliefs may be, they take them just as seriously as you take yours. They're no more likely to misread my recitation of the shahada within the adhan then you would be to misread my recitation of the "sinner's prayer" in a TWeb thread, or whatever equivalent you might consider.

                      Without intention, none of that matters.

                      That's not to say they don't kill their own for apostasy. They do. And it's just as wicked according to my sensibilities as it is to yours. Spreading exaggerations on that crime for effect just gives them an easy reason to dismiss you as an Islamophobe. They take their sacred texts even more seriously than Christians do. The Qur'an is their "resurrection," their principle miracle. It's a lot shorter than the Bible, and lots of them know it by heart:
                      And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know it.
                      Surat Al-Baqarah, Ayah 42

                      Don't go there.
                      That in your case it did not happen does not mean that it cannot have happened. You're usually better at avoiding logical fallacies than that. I will grant that it is less likely to happen today due to the ability to instantaneously communicate outside one's immediate locale and the likelihood of international outcry. Under the Ottomans, however, dhimmis had no such resources, and stuff like that did happen. Wearing Muslim clothing put one at risk of being deemed a Muslim. Someone alleging that you'd said a Muslim prayer was sometimes sufficient cause to deem you a Muslim. Not all Muslims are as enlightened as those you hung out with. It is a matter of historical record that Islam spread largely through the sword. This is but a variant of that practice.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        That in your case it did not happen does not mean that it cannot have happened. You're usually better at avoiding logical fallacies than that.
                        You're usually better at keeping the goalposts fixed.

                        From here:

                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Congratulations. In a Muslim ruled country, you can now be considered Muslim (and be prosecuted for apostasy if you deny that).
                        To here:

                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Under the Ottomans, however, dhimmis had no such resources, and stuff like that did happen.
                        "Cannot" is not "cannot have."

                        And if you're setting the bar on "can" for logical fallacies, the fact, if it is a fact, that never-muslim non-muslims were historically executed for apostasy does not mean that it can happen today, any more than the fact, which is unquestionably a fact, that belonging to a different strain of Christianity resulted in torture and execution during the Inquisitions means it could lead to comparable punishments for modern Christians.

                        Just as well for you, I'm thinking.

                        Not that "can" is the right bar in any case. The right bar is whether it would happen with any reasonable likelihood.

                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I will grant that it is less likely to happen today due to the ability to instantaneously communicate outside one's immediate locale and the likelihood of international outcry.
                        "Less likely" is better, but still invidious in its understatement. It simply won't, in the same sense a plane won't fall out of the sky and crush a New York skyscraper this afternoon. It's a formerly reasonable concern that's unreasonable today, and if promoted today could reasonably be ascribed to Islamophobic fear-mongering that only serves to distract the conversation from more valid concerns.

                        Today in the news, a Saudi blogger has been granted a one-week reprieve from his next set of 50 lashes for insulting Islam because the first set of 50 from last week hasn't healed sufficiently. So he's holding at 50 down, 950 to go, in addition to the 10-year jail sentence.

                        Islam is in need of a reformation. While protests against public broadcast of the adhan may fail to advance that, claims that a non-muslim recitation of the adhan can lead to execution do even less, as they fail to provide meaningful criticism of the public broadcast.

                        As ever, Jesse

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I went to a private Christian college where prayer wasn't just public but students were obligated to attend chapel services three times per week. Failure to do so could result in expulsion.

                          Seems that gettin' the vapors over a "moderately amplified" Islamic prayer on Fridays is unnecessary.
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                            While that may seem a reasonable compromise, it's not practical. The adhan is their version of church bells, but it's not church bells. It may not be a pillar of Islam, but it's as emblematic of their worship as the Lord's prayer is to Christians, and no more amenable to substitution.
                            Yes, I know. The point I was trying to make is that the Christian call to prayer can be heard for miles, and in fact the bells are atop a huge tower for that very purpose. The proposed Muslim amplification wasn't nearly so widely audible. But nobody seems to complain about the bells.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by phank View Post
                              Yes, I know. The point I was trying to make is that the Christian call to prayer can be heard for miles, and in fact the bells are atop a huge tower for that very purpose. The proposed Muslim amplification wasn't nearly so widely audible. But nobody seems to complain about the bells.
                              I don't know of many communities where Church bells ring loudly (or at all) anymore.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Yeah church bells were not just a "call to prayer" but more of a community clock, announcing everything from church time to the actual time (bonging on the hour or half hour) because not everyone had clocks and watches.

                                Nowadays, people would whine about being woke up from their sleep with the church bells and call it "noise pollution"

                                Comment

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