Originally posted by Sam
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Who are the 'REAL' conservatives?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYeah, Sam's position, IIRC, has been summed up in the statement in that article - "Just as swiftly as right-wing supporters celebrated the find, liberal critics were quick to point out that Chivers never said the bombs were the same WMDs that Bush described; they were from the 1980s and early 1990s."
Saddam could have averted war by fully opening up his facilities for inspection and not playing cat and mouse games with the inspectors.
And even the liberals of the day were touting the danger Iraq presented with WMD.
—Sam
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostProbably because of recent reports that we really did find chemical weapons stockpiles in Iraq.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-found-in-iraq
The sticking point, of course, is that some people claim these were abandoned stockpiles as opposed to an active program, never mind the fact that the weapons were still very useable and very dangerous.
Saddam could have averted war by fully opening up his facilities for inspection and not playing cat and mouse games with the inspectors.
And even the liberals of the day were touting the danger Iraq presented with WMD.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis looks like something written in Chinese and transliterated into Engrish.
I'd like to see that "recent poll", please.
ETA: I think I found it...
And I think this is what you were trying to say:
Interestingly, however, it ALSO says 46 percent of independents... who reported to watch CNN ...answered similarly.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-found-in-iraq
The sticking point, of course, is that some people claim these were abandoned stockpiles as opposed to an active program, never mind the fact that the weapons were still very useable and very dangerous.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostKrugman's article today regarding the new GOP-led Congress hits new-style conservatism's ideology pretty square on the head.
"Many of us in the econ biz were wondering how the new leaders of Congress would respond to the sharp increase in American economic growth that, we now know, began last spring."
When an opinion piece starts off with such a blatantly (and I assume deliberately) misleading statement, you know there's no point reading the rest of the editorial. I assume he's talking about GDP, and this "sharp increase" he's talking about that started last spring when growth was negative only gets the figure barely to the point it was two-years before Obama took office, and even 5% is not as rosey a figure as Democrats want us to think:
This is in addition to the fact that many experts do not believe that GDP is an indicator of overall economic health ("[GDP does] not reveal anything about the structure of the economy or its stage of development." -Huffington Post), and it certainly doesn't put more money in the pocket of the average American who is being held back by a continually rising cost of living, stagnant wages, a shrinking job market, and the lowest labor participation rate since Jimmy Carter. Tell the average American that there has been a "sharp increase in American economic growth," and he'll rightly laugh in your face.
I don't know if pointing all this out makes me a "real conservative" in your eyes or not, and frankly, I don't care.
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Originally posted by Sam View Post51% of Republicans recently polled still believe there an active weapons program was found by American forces during the Iraq War.
I'd like to see that "recent poll", please.
ETA: I think I found it...
And I think this is what you were trying to say:
Interestingly, however, it ALSO says 46 percent of independents... who reported to watch CNN ...answered similarly.Last edited by Cow Poke; 01-11-2015, 06:54 AM.
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The "American Conservative" has been a laughingstock of traditionalists, neoreactionaries, and ethnonationalists, i.e.: the only recent conservative movements worth talking about, for quite a while.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI'd say the difference between old-style conservatism and new-style conservatism (sometimes misnamed neoconservatism, which is a specific foreign-policy prioritized subset of new-style conservatism) has to do with three principle elements: change, empiricism, and tradition. Old-style conservatism (which is currently exemplified in much of the writing at The American Conservative and still somewhat in vogue at institutions like American Enterprise Institute) focuses on preserving the structures of society with incremental changes, using compelling empirical data and logic. New-style conservatism (currently exemplified by institutions like The Heritage Foundation and writing at sites like The Blaze, Daily Caller, Breitbart) eschews the traditional desire to update societal norms incrementally and shows a generalized disdain for empirical analysis. Krugman's article today regarding the new GOP-led Congress hits new-style conservatism's ideology pretty square on the head.
Old-style conservatism, in short, is real conservatism.
New-style conservatism, in short, is pseudo-conservatism.
51% of Republicans recently polled still believe there an active weapons program was found by American forces during the Iraq War. Traditional Republican reforms addressing climate change have morphed into a nearly universal denial of the crisis (sometimes even of the science identifying the crisis). Many GOP congressmen have famously signed a pledge to "oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and to oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates." A wide range of Republicans, politicians or otherwise, publicly decry the existence of cost-reducing health reforms like narrower physician networks and higher deductibles — despite those conservative reforms being key aspects of previously-touted conservative policies. None of these examples reach back to "traditional" conservatism and are all of the more radical and less empirical pseudo-conservatism.
Real conservatism is certainly a threatened species in American politics today. Just as neoconservatives moved from the political left to the political right, traditional conservatism has moved leftward, if not (yet) to the political left, leaving it as the "mushy middle" in a very much polarized spectrum.
—Sam
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSays the liberal... I mean seriously, who elected you king?
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI'd say the difference between old-style conservatism and new-style conservatism (sometimes misnamed neoconservatism, which is a specific foreign-policy prioritized subset of new-style conservatism) has to do with three principle elements: change, empiricism, and tradition. Old-style conservatism (which is currently exemplified in much of the writing at The American Conservative and still somewhat in vogue at institutions like American Enterprise Institute) focuses on preserving the structures of society with incremental changes, using compelling empirical data and logic. New-style conservatism (currently exemplified by institutions like The Heritage Foundation and writing at sites like The Blaze, Daily Caller, Breitbart) eschews the traditional desire to update societal norms incrementally and shows a generalized disdain for empirical analysis. Krugman's article today regarding the new GOP-led Congress hits new-style conservatism's ideology pretty square on the head.
Old-style conservatism, in short, is real conservatism.
New-style conservatism, in short, is pseudo-conservatism.
51% of Republicans recently polled still believe there an active weapons program was found by American forces during the Iraq War. Traditional Republican reforms addressing climate change have morphed into a nearly universal denial of the crisis (sometimes even of the science identifying the crisis). Many GOP congressmen have famously signed a pledge to "oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and to oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates." A wide range of Republicans, politicians or otherwise, publicly decry the existence of cost-reducing health reforms like narrower physician networks and higher deductibles — despite those conservative reforms being key aspects of previously-touted conservative policies. None of these examples reach back to "traditional" conservatism and are all of the more radical and less empirical pseudo-conservatism.
Real conservatism is certainly a threatened species in American politics today. Just as neoconservatives moved from the political left to the political right, traditional conservatism has moved leftward, if not (yet) to the political left, leaving it as the "mushy middle" in a very much polarized spectrum.
—Sam
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Originally posted by pancreasman View PostI'm an observer of US politics but obviously not an expert. I have a reasonable understanding of the English language too. I think I understand what the words 'liberal' and conservative' mean. IMO I think some Americans have very idiosyncratic definitions of those words.
In a recent thread, someone mentioned something about how 'liberal' the US was (with negative connotation). I replied that that was hard to see given the great success of the Republicans at the mid terms. I was told Republicans aren't really conservative. This kind of boggled my mind.
Could posters from the US educate me in what a real Conservative politician looks like? Is there a truly conservative US party in your opinion? Could a truly conservative politician or party (as you define them) ever gain electoral support in the US (or anywhere)? Are there conservative politicians in other countries you admire? Are there conservative governments elsewhere in the world?
Old-style conservatism, in short, is real conservatism.
New-style conservatism, in short, is pseudo-conservatism.
51% of Republicans recently polled still believe there an active weapons program was found by American forces during the Iraq War. Traditional Republican reforms addressing climate change have morphed into a nearly universal denial of the crisis (sometimes even of the science identifying the crisis). Many GOP congressmen have famously signed a pledge to "oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and to oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates." A wide range of Republicans, politicians or otherwise, publicly decry the existence of cost-reducing health reforms like narrower physician networks and higher deductibles — despite those conservative reforms being key aspects of previously-touted conservative policies. None of these examples reach back to "traditional" conservatism and are all of the more radical and less empirical pseudo-conservatism.
Real conservatism is certainly a threatened species in American politics today. Just as neoconservatives moved from the political left to the political right, traditional conservatism has moved leftward, if not (yet) to the political left, leaving it as the "mushy middle" in a very much polarized spectrum.
—Sam
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