Originally posted by KingsGambit
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Who are the 'REAL' conservatives?
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI'd say the difference between old-style conservatism and new-style conservatism (sometimes misnamed neoconservatism, which is a specific foreign-policy prioritized subset of new-style conservatism) has to do with three principle elements: change, empiricism, and tradition. Old-style conservatism (which is currently exemplified in much of the writing at The American Conservative and still somewhat in vogue at institutions like American Enterprise Institute) focuses on preserving the structures of society with incremental changes, using compelling empirical data and logic. New-style conservatism (currently exemplified by institutions like The Heritage Foundation and writing at sites like The Blaze, Daily Caller, Breitbart) eschews the traditional desire to update societal norms incrementally and shows a generalized disdain for empirical analysis. Krugman's article today regarding the new GOP-led Congress hits new-style conservatism's ideology pretty square on the head.
Old-style conservatism, in short, is real conservatism.
New-style conservatism, in short, is pseudo-conservatism.
51% of Republicans recently polled still believe there an active weapons program was found by American forces during the Iraq War. Traditional Republican reforms addressing climate change have morphed into a nearly universal denial of the crisis (sometimes even of the science identifying the crisis). Many GOP congressmen have famously signed a pledge to "oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and to oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates." A wide range of Republicans, politicians or otherwise, publicly decry the existence of cost-reducing health reforms like narrower physician networks and higher deductibles — despite those conservative reforms being key aspects of previously-touted conservative policies. None of these examples reach back to "traditional" conservatism and are all of the more radical and less empirical pseudo-conservatism.
Real conservatism is certainly a threatened species in American politics today. Just as neoconservatives moved from the political left to the political right, traditional conservatism has moved leftward, if not (yet) to the political left, leaving it as the "mushy middle" in a very much polarized spectrum.
—Sam"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSays the liberal... I mean seriously, who elected you king?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI'd say the difference between old-style conservatism and new-style conservatism (sometimes misnamed neoconservatism, which is a specific foreign-policy prioritized subset of new-style conservatism) has to do with three principle elements: change, empiricism, and tradition. Old-style conservatism (which is currently exemplified in much of the writing at The American Conservative and still somewhat in vogue at institutions like American Enterprise Institute) focuses on preserving the structures of society with incremental changes, using compelling empirical data and logic. New-style conservatism (currently exemplified by institutions like The Heritage Foundation and writing at sites like The Blaze, Daily Caller, Breitbart) eschews the traditional desire to update societal norms incrementally and shows a generalized disdain for empirical analysis. Krugman's article today regarding the new GOP-led Congress hits new-style conservatism's ideology pretty square on the head.
Old-style conservatism, in short, is real conservatism.
New-style conservatism, in short, is pseudo-conservatism.
51% of Republicans recently polled still believe there an active weapons program was found by American forces during the Iraq War. Traditional Republican reforms addressing climate change have morphed into a nearly universal denial of the crisis (sometimes even of the science identifying the crisis). Many GOP congressmen have famously signed a pledge to "oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and to oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates." A wide range of Republicans, politicians or otherwise, publicly decry the existence of cost-reducing health reforms like narrower physician networks and higher deductibles — despite those conservative reforms being key aspects of previously-touted conservative policies. None of these examples reach back to "traditional" conservatism and are all of the more radical and less empirical pseudo-conservatism.
Real conservatism is certainly a threatened species in American politics today. Just as neoconservatives moved from the political left to the political right, traditional conservatism has moved leftward, if not (yet) to the political left, leaving it as the "mushy middle" in a very much polarized spectrum.
—Sam"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostCerealman, where are you?Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Sam View Post51% of Republicans recently polled still believe there an active weapons program was found by American forces during the Iraq War.
I'd like to see that "recent poll", please.
ETA: I think I found it...
And I think this is what you were trying to say:
Interestingly, however, it ALSO says 46 percent of independents... who reported to watch CNN ...answered similarly.Last edited by Cow Poke; 01-11-2015, 06:54 AM.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostKrugman's article today regarding the new GOP-led Congress hits new-style conservatism's ideology pretty square on the head.
"Many of us in the econ biz were wondering how the new leaders of Congress would respond to the sharp increase in American economic growth that, we now know, began last spring."
When an opinion piece starts off with such a blatantly (and I assume deliberately) misleading statement, you know there's no point reading the rest of the editorial. I assume he's talking about GDP, and this "sharp increase" he's talking about that started last spring when growth was negative only gets the figure barely to the point it was two-years before Obama took office, and even 5% is not as rosey a figure as Democrats want us to think:
This is in addition to the fact that many experts do not believe that GDP is an indicator of overall economic health ("[GDP does] not reveal anything about the structure of the economy or its stage of development." -Huffington Post), and it certainly doesn't put more money in the pocket of the average American who is being held back by a continually rising cost of living, stagnant wages, a shrinking job market, and the lowest labor participation rate since Jimmy Carter. Tell the average American that there has been a "sharp increase in American economic growth," and he'll rightly laugh in your face.
I don't know if pointing all this out makes me a "real conservative" in your eyes or not, and frankly, I don't care.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis looks like something written in Chinese and transliterated into Engrish.
I'd like to see that "recent poll", please.
ETA: I think I found it...
And I think this is what you were trying to say:
Interestingly, however, it ALSO says 46 percent of independents... who reported to watch CNN ...answered similarly.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-found-in-iraq
The sticking point, of course, is that some people claim these were abandoned stockpiles as opposed to an active program, never mind the fact that the weapons were still very useable and very dangerous.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostProbably because of recent reports that we really did find chemical weapons stockpiles in Iraq.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-found-in-iraq
The sticking point, of course, is that some people claim these were abandoned stockpiles as opposed to an active program, never mind the fact that the weapons were still very useable and very dangerous.
Saddam could have averted war by fully opening up his facilities for inspection and not playing cat and mouse games with the inspectors.
And even the liberals of the day were touting the danger Iraq presented with WMD.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYeah, Sam's position, IIRC, has been summed up in the statement in that article - "Just as swiftly as right-wing supporters celebrated the find, liberal critics were quick to point out that Chivers never said the bombs were the same WMDs that Bush described; they were from the 1980s and early 1990s."
Saddam could have averted war by fully opening up his facilities for inspection and not playing cat and mouse games with the inspectors.
And even the liberals of the day were touting the danger Iraq presented with WMD.
—Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View Post...an example of pseudo-conservatism's difficulty with empirical reasoning, as stated.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sam View PostYou remember less correctly than you should:The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostWe FL/SC don't even get our own common term
On the other hand, the so-called social liberals seem to be increasingly totalitarian these days, wanting: to control what people put in their own bodies, to protect people from themselves, to control your education, to control how you raise your children, to control your thoughts and speech (so as not to offend anyone), to control what car you drive, to control your retirement savings, to control how you use the water you purchase, to control what light bulbs you can use, to control what toilet you have in your house, to control what shower head you use in your shower, and so on.
The supposed spectrum between social conservative and social liberal has become not useful.
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