Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Who are the 'REAL' conservatives?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Maybe we could say that most conservatives are fiscal conservatives, but not all of them are social conservatives.
    Or we could say that most people are conservative about the things they know very well. They most certainly would not stay out of abortion and marriages that affected them and their family specifically, because they instinctively recognize their fundamental authority in that field.

    Needless to say, the current government does not.

    If this means maintaining only enough defense for actual defense (rather than running overseas to start wars halfway around the world), so be it.
    What do foreign wars have to do with 'social conservatism'? The great split in foreign policy was traditionally between the formalists and the DoD, who preferred openly declaring war on enemies, and the informalists at the State Department, who favor informally doing so via diplomacy, subterfuge, encouraging local revolutions, and applied foreign aid. Both are expensive, only one can be described as democratically involving the common American in the foreign affairs of his country.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
      I found this doing my minimal research on line. I do maintain that the US is 'more' conservative generally than most other developed nations and I think some of you guys' heads would explode if you had to live here in OZ or NZ for example.
      I fully agree - that's actually pretty old news. What most Americans would be surprised by is how much more in common our sides have than those internationally. Our 'left' would be right in many nations and our 'right' left of many others. American is VERY centrist - our bell curve looks like a tall bell; Europe's looks like a bump in a long line.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by phank View Post
        Maybe we could say that most conservatives are fiscal conservatives, but not all of them are social conservatives. Pure fiscal conservatives want a smaller, less intrusive, far less expensive government. If this means government should stay out of such personal affairs as abortion and marriage, so be it. If this means maintaining only enough defense for actual defense (rather than running overseas to start wars halfway around the world), so be it. If it means legalizing drugs and stopping the prohibitively expensive, totally ineffective drug war, so be it. Fiscal conservatives favor toll roads, so that only those who drive on a road should be paying for it. And so on.
        Fiscal conservatives often fall into the libertarian spectrum which makes them more socially liberal. Not all social conservatives are fiscally conservative but a high percentage are. In common parlance, FC/SL is usually going to be called moderate if not libertarian (which would be the more accurate).

        In any case, I would not refer to FC/SL or FL/SC as either liberal or conservative if speaking generally.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Fiscal conservatives often fall into the libertarian spectrum which makes them more socially liberal. Not all social conservatives are fiscally conservative but a high percentage are. In common parlance, FC/SL is usually going to be called moderate if not libertarian (which would be the more accurate).

          In any case, I would not refer to FC/SL or FL/SC as either liberal or conservative if speaking generally.
          We FL/SC don't even get our own common term
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            I fully agree - that's actually pretty old news. What most Americans would be surprised by is how much more in common our sides have than those internationally. Our 'left' would be right in many nations and our 'right' left of many others. American is VERY centrist - our bell curve looks like a tall bell; Europe's looks like a bump in a long line.
            I see people say this all the time, but I know some leftists in America that would probably put to shame most leftists in Europe (I have a number of close acquaintances in the Anarchist scene), but maybe you're referring to our politicians moreso than groups of individuals.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
              Just to add some data to the mix:

              [ATTACH=CONFIG]3421[/ATTACH]

              from here

              Is this a realistic summary?

              [ATTACH=CONFIG]3422[/ATTACH]

              Are US values skewed compared to the rest of the West? see here
              Which is to say that Americans overwhelming believe in personal freedom and self-actualization. And now you know why the United States of America is one of the greatest nations in history despite our current president doing everything he can to change that.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                We FL/SC don't even get our own common term
                You're considered 'populists' - and almost as rare as dodos...
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  I see people say this all the time, but I know some leftists in America that would probably put to shame most leftists in Europe (I have a number of close acquaintances in the Anarchist scene), but maybe you're referring to our politicians moreso than groups of individuals.
                  Those are called 'outliers'. Sure, some exist, but in aggregate, we don't see very many.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    You're considered 'populists' - and almost as rare as dodos...
                    I thought populism was more generally about reflecting the will of the people/pandering to the crowd (i.e. Elizabeth Warren fashions herself a populist). I don't support such political behavior because public opinion is capricious.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      I thought populism was more generally about reflecting the will of the people/pandering to the crowd (i.e. Elizabeth Warren fashions herself a populist). I don't support such political behavior because public opinion is capricious.
                      You're thinking party instead of spectrum.

                      Political science: never create a new term when you can recycle an old one fifteen different ways.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Those are called 'outliers'. Sure, some exist, but in aggregate, we don't see very many.
                        Well maybe you don't. Probably depends on the circles you know.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Which is to say that Americans overwhelming believe in personal freedom and self-actualization. And now you know why the United States of America is one of the greatest nations in history despite our current president doing everything he can to change that.
                          He seems to be doing quite well at "that" change. I refer to the United States of America as a once great nation. A great nation would be made up of those values you list, but they do not seem to apply in this day and age.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            You're thinking party instead of spectrum.

                            Political science: never create a new term when you can recycle an old one fifteen different ways.
                            No, I know there all ]the historical Populist Party, but I see people registered to all different political parties associated with the general spirit of populism.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                              I'm an observer of US politics but obviously not an expert. I have a reasonable understanding of the English language too. I think I understand what the words 'liberal' and conservative' mean. IMO I think some Americans have very idiosyncratic definitions of those words.

                              In a recent thread, someone mentioned something about how 'liberal' the US was (with negative connotation). I replied that that was hard to see given the great success of the Republicans at the mid terms. I was told Republicans aren't really conservative. This kind of boggled my mind.

                              Could posters from the US educate me in what a real Conservative politician looks like? Is there a truly conservative US party in your opinion? Could a truly conservative politician or party (as you define them) ever gain electoral support in the US (or anywhere)? Are there conservative politicians in other countries you admire? Are there conservative governments elsewhere in the world?
                              I'd say the difference between old-style conservatism and new-style conservatism (sometimes misnamed neoconservatism, which is a specific foreign-policy prioritized subset of new-style conservatism) has to do with three principle elements: change, empiricism, and tradition. Old-style conservatism (which is currently exemplified in much of the writing at The American Conservative and still somewhat in vogue at institutions like American Enterprise Institute) focuses on preserving the structures of society with incremental changes, using compelling empirical data and logic. New-style conservatism (currently exemplified by institutions like The Heritage Foundation and writing at sites like The Blaze, Daily Caller, Breitbart) eschews the traditional desire to update societal norms incrementally and shows a generalized disdain for empirical analysis. Krugman's article today regarding the new GOP-led Congress hits new-style conservatism's ideology pretty square on the head.

                              Old-style conservatism, in short, is real conservatism.

                              New-style conservatism, in short, is pseudo-conservatism.

                              51% of Republicans recently polled still believe there an active weapons program was found by American forces during the Iraq War. Traditional Republican reforms addressing climate change have morphed into a nearly universal denial of the crisis (sometimes even of the science identifying the crisis). Many GOP congressmen have famously signed a pledge to "oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and to oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates." A wide range of Republicans, politicians or otherwise, publicly decry the existence of cost-reducing health reforms like narrower physician networks and higher deductibles — despite those conservative reforms being key aspects of previously-touted conservative policies. None of these examples reach back to "traditional" conservatism and are all of the more radical and less empirical pseudo-conservatism.

                              Real conservatism is certainly a threatened species in American politics today. Just as neoconservatives moved from the political left to the political right, traditional conservatism has moved leftward, if not (yet) to the political left, leaving it as the "mushy middle" in a very much polarized spectrum.

                              —Sam
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Well maybe you don't. Probably depends on the circles you know.
                                How many times do I have to tell you to quit playing with those nasty kids?
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by seer, Today, 01:02 PM
                                9 responses
                                27 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seer
                                by seer
                                 
                                Started by RumTumTugger, Yesterday, 10:33 AM
                                6 responses
                                47 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by seer, Yesterday, 07:13 AM
                                13 responses
                                82 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by seer, 07-04-2022, 12:42 PM
                                27 responses
                                284 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by Gondwanaland, 07-03-2022, 01:34 PM
                                9 responses
                                90 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Stoic
                                by Stoic
                                 
                                Working...
                                X