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Mrs. Bathhouse Barack: asking me to grab something off a shelf is racism

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    How dare someone actually treat her like an ordinary shopper? In an ordinary department store!

    Heaven forbid.
    I believe the underlying issue here is that white first ladies such as Laura Bush or Jackie Kennedy probably would not have been treated like ordinary shoppers. Consider our society's tendency to idolize and be awestruck by celebrities in our midst, even if we disagree with them. They likely would've been received with great awe and respect. People would be gaping at them with wide-eyed stares, or whispering excitedly as they passed, or approaching them to ask "Are you REALLY Laura Bush/Jackie Kennedy?" Shoppers almost certainly would not have completely ignored them or asked "Could you grab something for me?" If anything, the shoppers would be the ones trying to grab things for the first lady.

    This just shows how disconnected the Obamas are from real life.
    There does seem to be a disconnect here, but not in the way that you mentioned. Michelle Obama can trace her lineage back to slaves who lived in the antebellum South. She knows for a fact that her family was once treated as if they weren't people at all, that they experienced arguably the cruelest and most vile form of racism that the world has ever known--a system based on forcing black people to be subservient to white people. Obviously, being asked to grab something for a shopper isn't akin to slavery, but it could've been perceived as involving subservience, and as I mentioned earlier, white first ladies almost certainly would not have been asked to do this, even if they were also taller than the shopper.

    Besides, aren't white conservative pundits always telling us that black people need to work hard and value education and present themselves properly to achieve power and respect and be viewed equally? Michelle Obama has done all that--she was the salutatorian of her high school class, studied at Princeton and Harvard, married an equally well-educated man who became president of the most powerful free nation in the world--and yet she wasn't treated in the way that white first ladies would probably be treated. Yes, it's possible that the shoppers simply didn't recognize her, and that there was no racial bias or malice involved, but considering that she's one of the most famous women in America, it's understandable that she didn't immediately assume this. And given her family's history, it's also understandable that she may have suspected some racial factor was at play.
    Last edited by fm93; 12-18-2014, 04:06 PM.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by square_peg View Post
      I believe the underlying issue here is that white first ladies such as Laura Bush or Jackie Kennedy probably would not have been treated like ordinary shoppers. Consider our society's tendency to idolize and be awestruck by celebrities in our midst, even if we disagree with them. They likely would've been received with great awe and respect. People would be gaping at them with wide-eyed stares, or whispering excitedly as they passed, or approaching them to ask "Are you REALLY Laura Bush/Jackie Kennedy?" Shoppers almost certainly would not have completely ignored them or asked "Could you grab something for me?" If anything, the shoppers would be the ones trying to grab things for the first lady.


      There does seem to be a disconnect here, but not in the way that you mentioned. Michelle Obama can trace her lineage back to slaves who lived in the antebellum South. She knows for a fact that her family was once treated as if they weren't people at all, that they experienced arguably the cruelest and most vile form of racism that the world has ever known--a system based on forcing black people to be subservient to white people. Obviously, being asked to grab something for a shopper isn't akin to slavery, but it does involve subservience, and as I mentioned earlier, white first ladies almost certainly would not have been asked to do this, even if they were also taller than the shopper.

      Besides, aren't white conservative pundits always telling us that black people need to work hard and value education and present themselves properly to achieve power and respect and be viewed equally? Michelle Obama has done all that--she was the salutatorian of her high school class, studied at Princeton and Harvard, married an equally well-educated man who became president of the most powerful free nation in the world--and yet she wasn't treated in the way that white first ladies would probably be treated. Yes, it's possible that the shoppers simply didn't recognize her, and that there was no racial bias or malice involved, but considering that she's one of the most famous women in America, it's understandable that she didn't immediately assume this. And given her family's history, it's also understandable that she may have suspected some racial factor was at play.
      If Michelle Obama wasn't recognized in the story, then your repeated insistence that she probably wasn't treated as white first ladies were treated is irrelevant.

      Also, I'm taller than average. (6'4" or so.) Your comment about being asked to grab something for someone as an act of subservience is...really, really strange to me. "Hey, could you hand me that jar of pickles above you?" Subservience? I think not.
      I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        If Michelle Obama wasn't recognized in the story, then your repeated insistence that she probably wasn't treated as white first ladies were treated is irrelevant.
        Yes, but at first she didn't seem to believe that it was because she wasn't recognized. As I said, I personally don't believe there was racism involved, but I do find it understandable how she might've thought otherwise. I simply wanted to present what her point of view might've been, as a counter to certain posters who are being outright dismissive.

        Also, I'm taller than average. (6'4" or so.) Your comment about being asked to grab something for someone as an act of subservience is...really, really strange to me. "Hey, could you hand me that jar of pickles above you?" Subservience? I think not.
        I guess it depends on just how short the customer was. If she was so short that she couldn't reach it (aka she was dependent on a taller person), then I'd agree, but if she was tall enough and simply wanted someone else to do that for her because it would be a bit easier, that would seem to resemble subservience.
        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
          If Michelle Obama wasn't recognized in the story, then your repeated insistence that she probably wasn't treated as white first ladies were treated is irrelevant.
          This.
          Also, I'm taller than average. (6'4" or so.) Your comment about being asked to grab something for someone as an act of subservience is...really, really strange to me. "Hey, could you hand me that jar of pickles above you?" Subservience? I think not.
          People who are looking for perceived slights will generally be able to find one.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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          • #35
            I just don't get this. Apparently I better not ask a black person to hand me anything in a grocery store, ever, because it might be racism. (?)

            What if the individual who's being presumed to be a racist recognized Michelle Obama, but thought that the First Lady is a very friendly, nice lady who likes to help people?
            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

            Comment


            • #36
              Here's another thought: if I am asked to get something off a shelf for someone else, would it be appropriate for me to respond, "I refuse to be subservient to you; get it yourself."? Or would that only be acceptable if I perceived that they weren't too short to grab it themselves?

              Edit: corrected negative
              Last edited by Zymologist; 12-18-2014, 03:33 PM.
              I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                I believe the underlying issue here is that white first ladies such as Laura Bush or Jackie Kennedy probably would not have been treated like ordinary shoppers. Consider our society's tendency to idolize and be awestruck by celebrities in our midst, even if we disagree with them. They likely would've been received with great awe and respect. People would be gaping at them with wide-eyed stares, or whispering excitedly as they passed, or approaching them to ask "Are you REALLY Laura Bush/Jackie Kennedy?" Shoppers almost certainly would not have completely ignored them or asked "Could you grab something for me?" If anything, the shoppers would be the ones trying to grab things for the first lady.
                Oh please. Would they even be in Target in disguise trying to prove they are ordinary people like Michelle was doing? If they were, they would have been treated the same way. She was upset because she wasn't treated like royalty even though she was pretending not to be the First Lady. Boo-hoo.

                If someone DID recognize Michelle, they would be all over her and wanting autographs and all that.

                And being asked to help in a store is not about racism, it means that Michelle succeeded in disguising herself and looking like an ordinary citizen. She got to play "poor house mom" for a day.

                I have met a few celebrities in my life and the ones you get along with the best are the ones who don't want to be treated like celebrities and they treat you as equals. Those that expect to be treated like they are better than others are nothing more than prima-donnas. Five minutes after meeting them you want to go wash your hands. So what if Michelle Obama is the first lady? Who cares? She isn't better than anyone else. She isn't even an elected official. And her husband works for the people, not the other way around.


                There does seem to be a disconnect here, but not in the way that you mentioned. Michelle Obama can trace her lineage back to slaves who lived in the antebellum South. She knows for a fact that her family was once treated as if they weren't people at all, that they experienced arguably the cruelest and most vile form of racism that the world has ever known--a system based on forcing black people to be subservient to white people. Obviously, being asked to grab something for a shopper isn't akin to slavery, but it does involve subservience, and as I mentioned earlier, white first ladies almost certainly would not have been asked to do this, even if they were also taller than the shopper.
                No it doesn't involve subservience. It means that the woman felt comfortable asking another woman to help her out because she was too short to reach something. People do it with other people in stores all the time. It wasn't like she went looking for some black woman and demanded help. She said "excuse me for bothering you but could you help me?" - that is admitting that you need help, not thinking that someone is your servant. sheesh SP do you EVER get out of your mom's basement and go into the real world?


                [rest of your liberal whining deleted]

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                • #38
                  Square_pegs law: No matter what position conservatives take, take the opposite one and never admit you were wrong.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    No it doesn't involve subservience. It means that the woman felt comfortable asking another woman to help her out because she was too short to reach something. People do it with other people in stores all the time. It wasn't like she went looking for some black woman and demanded help. She said "excuse me for bothering you but could you help me?" - that is admitting that you need help, not thinking that someone is your servant. sheesh SP do you EVER get out of your mom's basement and go into the real world?
                    This is exactly my reading here. A shorter woman, who didn't recognize her, very politely asked her for help. Yes, this happens all the time. No, there's nothing racist or subservient about it. Nor does it seem Michelle expected royal treatment, or even expected to be recognized. She's saying what several here are saying - people get help from others in stores all the time, it's an everyday normal experience.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                      I just don't get this. Apparently I better not ask a black person to hand me anything in a grocery store, ever, because it might be racism. (?)
                      What.

                      No. That--that has no bearing to what I was saying...

                      Okay, seriously, what the hell do I have to do? I friggin' AGREE with you that there was no racism involved. All I wanted to do was explain why Michelle Obama might've interpreted her experience to think otherwise. I agree that her thinking and conclusion were ultimately incorrect. Why do you people keep reading things into my posts instead of, you know, the actual posts themselves?


                      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                      Here's another thought: if I am asked to get something off a shelf for someone else, would it be appropriate for me to respond, "I refuse to be subservient to you; get it yourself."? Or would that only be acceptable if I perceived that they weren't too short to grab it themselves?
                      At this point I'm not even sure if I want to respond and take the risk of having to explain it multiple times to people who spin it into something completely different.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by phank View Post
                        This is exactly my reading here.
                        Hey, that's exactly my reading here too! Too bad Sparko is apparently incapable of realizing things like this.
                        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          What.

                          No. That--that has no bearing to what I was saying...

                          Okay, seriously, what the hell do I have to do? I friggin' AGREE with you that there was no racism involved. All I wanted to do was explain why Michelle Obama might've interpreted her experience to think otherwise. I agree that her thinking and conclusion were ultimately incorrect. Why do you people keep reading things into my posts instead of, you know, the actual posts themselves?



                          At this point I'm not even sure if I want to respond and take the risk of having to explain it multiple times to people who spin it into something completely different.
                          I saw where you said you didn't think it was racism, but you're speaking it as if it was racism for argument's sake. You appeared to be playing the devil's advocate, so I was just trying to play along. Clearly I failed.
                          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                            Hey, that's exactly my reading here too! Too bad Sparko is apparently incapable of realizing things like this.
                            Uh...you were the one who said it "involved subservience."
                            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Oh please.
                              And thankyou.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Sorry, I meant to include a response to Sparko as well, but I hit post too soon. That wasn't meant to address you alone.

                                Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                                I saw where you said you didn't think it was racism, but you're speaking it as if it was racism for argument's sake.

                                You appeared to be playing the devil's advocate, so I was just trying to play along. Clearly I failed.
                                I don't believe I was even doing that. At least, I always thought playing devil's advocate was something like "Let's assume that this argument is true," whereas I was simply explaining what the argument might've been.
                                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                                Comment

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