Code Red

[Darth Executor]

It must be that I'm not writing this clearly enough: Are combatants (whether me or anyone else) bound by a moral code and/or operating under some legal framework? In your answer, please try not to go off on tangents about how liberals are evil and Congressmen deserve condemnation.

Of course they are.

There IS a uniform code to govern the military. I'm still unclear whether Epo and Darth believe this is right and proper.

Most western codes of governing the military are built for the benefit of politicians, which is why you are seeing a backlash.

At the risk of Godwin, we prosecuted Nazis for war crimes. IIRC Paprika spoke negatively about that. I'm unclear as to why. Were we as a society right to be horrified at the My Lai massacre? Was it right to hold Serb commanders to account for ethnic cleansing atrocities?

You're unclear as to why because liberals want to punish the Serbs and Nazis while engaging in similar (if not worse) behavior to the kind of behavior that created the Serb commanders and Nazis in the first place. My response is that if you're asking whether it's ok to punish people for war crimes you're a little too late to the party to start moralizing.

The reason I'm asking is that most reasonable people, Christian or not, liberal or conservative, believe that some actions in warfare by combatants (even if they're me) are beyond the bounds of wartime morality and a dishonour to their units. Are they right? For some reason, I'm having trouble extracting from Epo and Darth a straight answer to this question. I promise I'm not laying some future infernal liberal trap. I'm asking because I'm curious about the moral beliefs of both these guys.

Sure. For example, I think it's wrong for a soldier to shoot a fellow* soldier in the back so he can steal his gear.


*fellow as opposed to enemy

[pancreasman]

Of course they are.



Most western codes of governing the military are built for the benefit of politicians, which is why you are seeing a backlash.



You're unclear as to why because liberals want to punish the Serbs and Nazis while engaging in similar (if not worse) behavior to the kind of behavior that created the Serb commanders and Nazis in the first place. My response is that if you're asking whether it's ok to punish people for war crimes you're a little too late to the party to start moralizing.



Sure. For example, I think it's wrong for a soldier to shoot a fellow* soldier in the back so he can steal his gear.


*fellow as opposed to enemy

Thanks for that.

[Epoetker]

Here's a question all your own: should the Nazis have been judged for war crimes?

I'd say the firebombing of Dresden and other cities was judgment enough.

Is what they did in war time morally wrong?

So was the firebombing of Dresden, and, while we're at it, the Morgenthau plan. Neither have nor should have been tried in any court of law after the fact, for to do so is to say that there is no law that governs war or peace, which is to say de facto that the war never truly ends no matter what documents, treaties, and promises are made, so you may as well learn to dissemble and terrorize and conspire your whole life, in war or in peace, just in case. To refuse to acknowledge that different written and unwritten laws govern war and peace is to have a form of legalism while denying its power.

Under JCS 1067, food imports to a food-deficit nation were terminated, and the entire population of Germany put on a 1000-calorie-a-day diet for most of 1946 and 1947. Fortunately, official records reveal only a negligible increase in the death rate, from 11.9 deaths per 1000 per annum prewar, to 12.1 per 1000 under JCS 1067. Obviously, the Germans were simply fat. They needed the Morgenthau diet. Indeed, their present slimness and good health may be a result.

I am not aware of any similar figures for German postwar energy consumption. But 80% sounds about right. (The destruction of coal mines was a major aspect of the "pastoral" treatment.) Then again, one can argue that the Germans both needed and deserved the Morgenthau protocol. After all, it worked, didn't it? Not just a dietetic therapy - also a psychiatric treatment...

Beautiful! Is there any legal reason we can't use the principles of JCS 1067 and the Morgenthau plan against, say, those who really deserve it?

a. A Proclamation dissolving the Democratic Party, its formations, affiliated associations and supervised organizations, and all Democrat-run public institutions which were set up as instruments of Party domination, and prohibiting their revival in any form, should be promulgated by the Control Council. You will assure the prompt effectuation of that policy in your zone and will make every effort to prevent the reconstitution of any such organization in underground, disguised or secret form. Responsibility for continuing desirable non-political social services of dissolved Party organizations may be transferred by the Control Council to appropriate central agencies and by you to appropriate local agencies.

b. The laws purporting to establish the political structure of Afrocentrism and the basis of the Obama regime and all laws, decrees and regulations which establish discriminations on grounds of race, nationality, creed or political opinions should be abrogated by the Control Council. You will render them inoperative in your zone.

c. All members of the Democratic party who have been more than nominal participants in its activities all active supporters of liberalism or anarchism and all other persons hostile to Allied purposes will be removed and excluded from public office and from positions of importance in quasi-public and private enterprises such as (1) civic, economic and labor organizations, (2) corporations and other organizations in which the American government or subdivisions have a major financial interest, (3) industry, commerce, agriculture, and finance, (4) education, and (5) the press, publishing houses and other agencies disseminating news and propaganda.

Persons are to be treated as more than nominal participants in Party activities and as active supporters of liberalism or anarchism when they have (1) held office or otherwise been active at any level from local to national in the party and its subordinate organizations, or in organizations which further militaristic doctrines, (2) authorized or participated affirmatively in any Nazi crimes, racial persecutions or discriminations, (3) been avowed believers in Nazism or racial and militaristic creeds, or (4) voluntarily given substantial moral or material support or political assistance of any kind to the Democratic Party or Democrat officials and leaders.

No such persons shall be retained in any of the categories of employment listed above because of administrative necessity, convenience or expediency.

d. Property, real and personal, owned or controlled by the Democrat party, its formations, affiliated associations and supervised organizations, and by all persons subject to arrest under the provisions of paragraph 8, and found within your zone, will be taken under your control pending a decision by the Control Council or higher authority as to its eventual disposition.

e. All archives, monuments and museums of Democrat inception, or which are devoted to the perpetuation of American liberalism, will be taken under your control and their properties held pending decision as to their disposition by the Control Council.

f. You will make special efforts to preserve from destruction and take under your control records, plans, books, documents, papers, files, and scientific, industrial and other information and data belonging to or controlled by the following:

(1) The Central America Government and its subdivisions, American military organizations, organizations engaged in military research, and such other governmental agencies as may be deemed advisable;

(2) The Democrat Party, its formations, affiliated associations and supervised organizations;

(3) All police organizations, including security and political police;

(4) Important economic organizations and industrial establishments including those controlled by the Democrat Party or its personnel;

(5) Institutes and special bureaus devoting themselves to racial, political, anarchist, or similar research or propaganda.

What a man can do, and what a man will do, however, are sadly two different things.