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Code Red

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  • Code Red

    I thank Bill the Cat for quoting this, which I will post here:

    Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

    - Col. Jessep

    That was from the movie "A Few Good Men." Santiago was accidentally killed during a code red. As a former Marine let me school you. "Code Red", or as we also called them "blanket parties" (see the movie "Full Metal Jacket") were strictly illegal according to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Explicit orders were never given to carry out a code red, it was all done with a wink and a nod - but they were invaluable for weeding out "non-hackers" or getting a wayward Marine back on track. I was involved in a number of these - and at times they were quite brutal. But they accomplished their ends - either the recruit washed out or he became a better Marine. In either case we became a closer and more unified fighting force. It is simply one of the tools that has made the United States Marine Corps one of the premier fighting forces in the world.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCNqKrX1sx8
    Last edited by seer; 12-11-2014, 12:32 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I was involved in a number of these - and at times they were quite brutal.
    This would explain quite a bit.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      This would explain quite a bit.
      Yes, I was a good Marine.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Yes, I was a good Marine.
        Yes, yes, I'm sure you were.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          Yes, yes, I'm sure you were.
          Thank you...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            I generally agree with the spirit of the quote while reserving the right to circumscribe the acts themselves:

            With the topic of locker room bullying in the headlines, former tight end Cam Cleeland reveals the details of a hazing incident from 1998 when he joined the New Orleans Saints. It started out as a "running the gauntlet" initiation with a pillowcase over his head, but then ended when his teammate Andre Royal walloped him in the face with a sock full of coins, shattering his eye socket and nearly costing him his vision in that eye.

            Sounds more like the beginning of a revenge killing than of closer team solidarity.

            Yet many commentators, whether they're sports fans or not, feel compelled to defend hazing, pointing to the greater solidarity it builds among those who pass through the initiation rites. A quick reality check points to the opposite conclusion -- that in this sports culture of free agents and widespread shameless showboating, hazing cannot be a solidarity-building rite, but must be another example of "let the Devil take the hindmost" morality.

            Normal initiation rites are highly circumscribed in what they do and do not allow to happen. The participants must adhere so rigidly to the formulas that we speak of thoughtless and mechanical processes as "ritualistic." That doesn't mean that the initiates won't suffer pain -- often they do. However, what they'll suffer is predictable from the ritual tradition. Any one of the pain-givers who wanted to escalate would be seen as violating a sacred tradition. This keeps sociopaths in check, and the predictability provides a certain amount of trust on the part of the initiates.

            The fixed formulas also ensure that what is happening to the initiates has already been endured by the tormentors themselves, back when they were the grunts. "I had to go through it -- now it's your turn." Fair is fair.

            Hazing has neither of these features because it is not a rigidly defined and adhered to set of formulas. What is being suffered by today's grunts was not necessarily suffered by their tormentors back in their time. As a new teammate, Andre Royal didn't have his eye socket smashed in with a sock full of coins. That's something that he cowardly inflicted on another without enduring it himself first.
            'Blanket parties' and their occasional tragedies are more an unfortunate consequence of not being able to say or do openly what you should be able to say or do openly(draft non-losers, establish the collective contempt of competent peers for performance, assess collective psychological state, etc.) They're an imperfect and necessarily undeveloped adaptation to an incoherent and cowardly policy further up, sadly controlled by people who think Tom Cruise is supposed to be the hero in that situation. They also tend to be reflections of the lack of such solidarity-building rituals in everyday living:

            Wikipedia has a similar list of milestones in hazing history. Note that during the Gilded Age (1873), the New York Times ran an article titled, "West Point.; "Hazing" at the Academy An Evil That Should be Entirely Rooted Out." They didn't run an article like that during WWII, which by all of these measures was near a low-point in hazing. We think of that period as being near the height for self-sacrifice and camaraderie in the military, suggesting again that hazing is corrosive to solidarity.

            During times of over-production of elites, the established ones fight nastier to hold onto their positions against the aspirants. That is the simplest way to interpret hazing in the broader context -- the entrenched elite struggling to keep out so many would-be usurpers. They shamelessly co-opt the language of preserving tradition and promoting solidarity, while fooling around with the ritual as it pleases them, sowing the seeds of resentment within the group, hiring themselves out like a mercenary rather than a committed lifelong team member, and putting on the most theatrically self-aggrandizing displays for ordinary achievements in their line of work.

            Touchdoooown! BOO-ya! In your FACE! SUCK it! Who's the best? Uh-huh, that's me! Uh-huh, that's me! Dance to the right, to the left! To the right, to the left! But not you, you didn't score! Not you, you didn't score! WHEW!!!

            Is it any wonder that normal people with healthy minds have become disgusted with the big-time sports culture over the past couple decades? About as uplifting and motivating to watch as a pitbull free-for-all in the black ghetto, or a cockfight in some brown slum.
            Two things tend to make these rituals both tolerable and useful: their presence in the wider culture (meaning that recruits are going to actually pick up on the social cues of the event rather than retreating into a psychologically broken shell) and the sense that there's an active war to fight and win on an actual timetable, which focuses the goals and intelligence of all acts on all sides much more sharply. Vietnam already had way too many perverse incentives against victory both in the common and military culture at the time, so it's not surprising that hazing often degenerated into hair-trigger barbaric status contests for psychopaths rather than common moral rituals.

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            • #7
              I also have to give some examples of hazing which I most definitely approve of:

              iphone.jpg

              using phone on duty

              shtyk.jpg

              forgot bayonet

              weapon.jpg

              An entirely too nice punishment for forgot weapon, step it up, Russia.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                An entirely too nice punishment for forgot weapon, step it up, Russia.
                Hehe, when I was going through ITR the Navy Seals in training would sneak up on us when we had guard duty - beat our butts and take our rifle and dog tags. Then return them to our commanding officer the next morning - then we had to face his wrath!
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Hehe, when I was going through ITR the Navy Seals in training would sneak up on us when we had guard duty - beat our butts and take our rifle and dog tags. Then return them to our commanding officer the next morning - then we had to face his wrath!
                  The Navy SEALs definitely rank highest on both the stupid hazing and 'overhyped elite forces' list Edited by a Moderator

                  SEALs are better than marines.

                  Edited by a Moderator They have more training but almost their entire act is stealth and surprise. Surprise is just one of the nine principles of war. Regular Army and marine units use all nine. SEALs and other special ops guys are all surprise. Once discovered, they are close to the equivalent of a downed pilot in need of rescue. They are lightly armed and provisioned. They can only do hit-and-run missions against lightly armed isolated, tiny enemy locations in a very narrow rage of weather and terrain circumstances. They have virtually no staying power and, as a result, very little ability to adjust to things not going according to plan. Things not going according to plan is the norm. The SEALs are lots of hype. Furthermore, SEALs are more often used in situations where they are not needed, that is, they generally perform not SEAL missions, but regular Army missions, because true SEAL missions are so few and far between that SEALs an other special ops guys start whining and yelling “Send me in, coach.” They would rather have a regular Army mission than no mission.
                  But I have a sneaking suspicion that the SEALS wouldn't try that kind of stunt twice without risking massive bodily injury.
                  Last edited by Cow Poke; 12-11-2014, 04:46 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                    The Navy SEALs definitely rank highest on both the stupid hazing and 'overhyped elite forces' list Edited by a Moderator

                    But I have a sneaking suspicion that the SEALS wouldn't try that kind of stunt twice without risking massive bodily injury.
                    No, the SEALs are really good. I personally would use US Marine Force Recon units though.
                    Last edited by Cow Poke; 12-11-2014, 04:47 PM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Code Red" is more humane than anything the enemy will do to you.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        "Code Red" is more humane than anything the enemy will do to you.
                        Yes, we never cut anyone's head off. At least not that I know of.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well the marines are crazy, and so are you seer.

                          Besides the danish Frogmen are better trained than Seals... un/fourtunately they don't see nearly as much firefight, so eventually any Seals team become better than a given Frogmen team. But right out of training? Frogmen would beat Seals.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Once again we are saying breaking the law is not only acceptable in some cases, but positively laudable. Hey, if you think that, that's fine but at least the US should be honest about it instead of going on about all the high minded virtues it self righteously protects.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Well the marines are crazy, and so are you seer.

                              Besides the danish Frogmen are better trained than Seals... un/fourtunately they don't see nearly as much firefight, so eventually any Seals team become better than a given Frogmen team. But right out of training? Frogmen would beat Seals.
                              I'd have to give it to them just for their name. Frogmen? Hell yeah.
                              I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                              Comment

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