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No more Fergusons - what can be done?

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  • No more Fergusons - what can be done?

    OK - what needs to be done to prevent people being killed by police officers?



    In another 'Ferguson' thread I posted:

    Originally posted by MaxVel
    If you were serious about changing America so that this kind of tragedy didn't happen so often, you'd be addressing the root causes - things like the entitlement/permanent victim mentality that some people have; adulation of the criminal 'lifestyle' in much of popular culture; hopelessness and lack of ambition to better oneself; unrealistic decision processes; family breakdown and parental abandonment of responsibility for their offspring; lack of respect for the law.... I could go on. There's a whole host of underlying factors that are causing these kinds of incidents.

    To that I'd like to add something that has struck me as an outsider about America: the culture of not having to be personally responsible for your choices.

    A couple of examples: Years ago I used to read 'Climbing' and similar magazines. There were articles and new stories about landowners in America closing access to cliffs on their land because of lawsuit fears. Someone who chose to climb on a cliff might hurt themselves (fall, rockfall, etc), and then sue the landowner. That mentality (I chose to do something inherently dangerous, got hurt, and now I'm going to blame someone else) is quite alien to me.

    A second example: Universal Studios in LA. There's a outdoor escalator, going down a not very steep hill. I counted something like six separate instructions on how to use the escalator played on a loop over loudspeakers as you went down the escalator - Face forward at all times - Hold on to the handrail - Do not lean over the sides - things like that. Basic Common Sense, yet in America it has to be blasted at you. I know, to avoid lawsuits.. ..but again, it's the culture of "I can goof off, hurt myself (somehow) and sue you to compensate me for my lack of responsibility".

    I wonder if/how much this 'culture' feeds into people's decision-making, where the link between choices and consequences that follow has been weakened.



    Anyway, I'd love to hear constructive ideas on what needs to change to 'make things better' in this area. I'm also open to borderline outrageous posts from the usual suspects...
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  • #2
    Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
    OK - what needs to be done to prevent people being killed by police officers?
    Christ return...

    In all seriousness though, as long as people:

    1. Act like they are above the law.
    2. Show a callous disregard for others.
    3. Blame others for their own faults and/or failures.

    somebody is likely to get killed by a police officer, until this stuff changes. Now how to take these things away... well... that is something I don't think is nearly as easy.

    In another 'Ferguson' thread I posted:

    To that I'd like to add something that has struck me as an outsider about America: the culture of not having to be personally responsible for your choices.

    A couple of examples: Years ago I used to read 'Climbing' and similar magazines. There were articles and new stories about landowners in America closing access to cliffs on their land because of lawsuit fears. Someone who chose to climb on a cliff might hurt themselves (fall, rockfall, etc), and then sue the landowner. That mentality (I chose to do something inherently dangerous, got hurt, and now I'm going to blame someone else) is quite alien to me.

    A second example: Universal Studios in LA. There's a outdoor escalator, going down a not very steep hill. I counted something like six separate instructions on how to use the escalator played on a loop over loudspeakers as you went down the escalator - Face forward at all times - Hold on to the handrail - Do not lean over the sides - things like that. Basic Common Sense, yet in America it has to be blasted at you. I know, to avoid lawsuits.. ..but again, it's the culture of "I can goof off, hurt myself (somehow) and sue you to compensate me for my lack of responsibility".

    I wonder if/how much this 'culture' feeds into people's decision-making, where the link between choices and consequences that follow has been weakened.

    Anyway, I'd love to hear constructive ideas on what needs to change to 'make things better' in this area. I'm also open to borderline outrageous posts from the usual suspects...
    I find the whole 'blame others' mentality rather odd too. Now, there's moments it does actually end up being other people's fault, but falling off a cliff (doing an inherently dangerous activity) or act a fool on an escalator seems to pretty much fall into the 'if you get hurt, it is your fault' view.

    And you visited the US and was in LA? I am deeply sorry for that...
    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 12-06-2014, 09:51 AM.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • #3
      The deterioration of American society really started, not coincidentally, with its attack on Christianity and the infamous Supreme Court decision to ban prayer in public schools. Since then, Christianity has been further and further marginalized and along with it the sense of duty reglious people feel to live morally and peacefully with their neighbors (there was a time when a town like Andy Griffith's Mayberry would have been considered idealistic but not unrealistic). A religious revival would go a long ways towards healing America, but it would have to start with the Church (here meaning the collective body of Christians) shaking itself out of complacency and more actively and aggressively living the gospel.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Christ return...

        In all seriousness though, as long as people:

        1. Act like they are above the law.
        2. Show a callous disregard for others.
        3. Blame others for their own faults and/or failures.

        somebody is likely to get killed by a police officer, until this stuff changes. Now how to take these things away... well... that is something I don't think is nearly as easy.
        No, it's probably just about impossible to fix it in our lifetimes, but maybe we can make a start... ?

        Leadership could set a better example - politicians, popular culture 'stars', athletes and so on.

        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror
        I find the whole 'blame others' mentality rather odd too. Now, there's moments it does actually end up being other people's fault, but falling off a cliff (doing an inherently dangerous activity) or act a fool on an escalator seems to pretty much fall into the 'if you get hurt, it is your fault' view.

        And you visited the US and was in LA? I am deeply sorry for that...

        Well, I have some friends in LA, so it made sense to visit there...
        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          The deterioration of American society really started, not coincidentally, with its attack on Christianity and the infamous Supreme Court decision to ban prayer in public schools. Since then, Christianity has been further and further marginalized and along with it the sense of duty reglious people feel to live morally and peacefully with their neighbors (there was a time when a town like Andy Griffith's Mayberry would have been considered idealistic but not unrealistic). A religious revival would go a long ways towards healing America, but it would have to start with the Church (here meaning the collective body of Christians) shaking itself out of complacency and more actively and aggressively living the gospel.

          That's an interesting perspective. Perhaps many Christians have disengaged with society as a whole, feeling that it's doomed or too far gone to change.. ? Maybe Christians need a collective rethink on our approach to social issues.
          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

          Comment


          • #6
            Mayor Rudy said it best....

            Young people need to be taught that, when encountering law enforcement personnel, the best thing they can do is comply. Worry about the "I was innocent" later, because there is no legal reason for not "obeying the lawful command of a police officer". Look at all the "wrongful death" or even "tragic even though legally justifiable" deaths, and the common factor is "resisting arrest".

            Communities should have processes or mechanisms in place to both shape law enforcement policy and procedure, and to assess "after action" consequences.

            Resisting arrest never ends well, and all too often gets somebody dead.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #7
              It's sad that all the emotional focus of society has been shifted onto this subject and away from the militarization of police and a police state in general which is becoming a real problem.
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                It's sad that all the emotional focus of society has been shifted onto this subject and away from the militarization of police and a police state in general which is becoming a real problem.
                I don't really know the statistics, but the stats I hear being cited for incarceration, especially of African-American me, are discouraging. In the past week or so I've heard it said that more African Americans are imprisoned than were enslaved in the US in 1850. Someone else said that income disparity between blacks and whites in the US is greater than existed in South Africa under apartheid. True? I have not followed the latest story in detail, but why was it considered necessary to arrest someone for selling individual cigarettes? Even if we assume it to be a good law, which I doubt, why not just issue some kind of citation?
                Last edited by robrecht; 12-06-2014, 02:15 PM.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm going to do my best to be personally responsible for my actions, and I'm going to do my best to teach my kids to be personally responsible for theirs. Beyond that...?
                  I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    I don't really know the statistics, but the stats I hear being cited for incarceration, especially of African-American me, are discouraging. In the past week or so I've heard it said that more African Americans are imprisoned than were enslaved in the US in 1850. Someone else said that income disparity between blacks and whites in the US is greater than existed in South Africa under apartheid. True? I have not followed the latest story in detail, but why was it considered necessary to arrest someone for selling individual cigarettes? Even if we assume it to be a good law, which I doubt, why not just issue some kind of citation?
                    I think it's important to look at incarcerations per capita compared to crimes committed per capita. If I remember correctly, for 2012, the FBI UCR reveals that blacks committed 55% of the violent crime, even though they only make up 13% of the population. I can't look at the source for that right now because I'm grilling.

                    And, as far as the disparity in income - where are the black leaders showing the way to excellence, education... All we seem to hear about is the excuses for why blacks are "held back", and "justification" for their "condition".
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I think it's important to look at incarcerations per capita compared to crimes committed per capita. If I remember correctly, for 2012, the FBI UCR reveals that blacks committed 55% of the violent crime, even though they only make up 13% of the population. I can't look at the source for that right now because I'm grilling.

                      And, as far as the disparity in income - where are the black leaders showing the way to excellence, education... All we seem to hear about is the excuses for why blacks are "held back", and "justification" for their "condition".
                      Why do you think that is? Just curious.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        Why do you think that is? Just curious.
                        I think there are two possible means of explanation: That it's innate or that it's not. I think few people are willing to consider the former. The other does involve looking into those dreaded socioeconomic issues.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I think there are two possible means of explanation: That it's innate or that it's not. I think smart people are willing to consider the former. The other does involve referring to and then looking no harder into those socially acceptable "socioeconomic issues."
                          Sentence was a bit fragmentary and unreflective of how these conversations tend to actually go, needed correction.

                          That said, there's a much quicker way to ensure No More Fergusons is actually successful: NO MORE ENFORCED DIVERSITY:

                          Originally posted by CityLab
                          It turns out the most cohesive neighborhoods are almost never the most diverse ones. But does that mean we shouldn't fight against self-segregation?
                          Most definitely!

                          Originally posted by seanD
                          It's sad that all the emotional focus of society has been shifted onto this subject and away from the militarization of police and a police state in general which is becoming a real problem.
                          And to quote Radish,

                          Look out! The skies are filled with drones! Truly the “Orwellian Age” is upon us. Meanwhile, a Nobel laureate is fired and disgraced for stating an incontrovertible truth deemed politically incorrect.
                          The police state is built on the socially accepted lies, not the other way around. If you cannot stop telling yourself and others the first you will never succeed against the second. Cohesive neighborhoods have no need for a police state-except against outsiders who are much less willing to accept the discipline that makes the neighborhood cohesive. We have indifferently callous law enforcers who stoke racial anger because we have an indifferently callous Acceptable Attitude of 'everyone is individually equal, so any changes in outcome are due to Devious Machinations of the White Power Structure.'
                          Last edited by Epoetker; 12-06-2014, 05:20 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                            To that I'd like to add something that has struck me as an outsider about America: the culture of not having to be personally responsible for your choices.

                            A couple of examples: Years ago I used to read 'Climbing' and similar magazines. There were articles and new stories about landowners in America closing access to cliffs on their land because of lawsuit fears. Someone who chose to climb on a cliff might hurt themselves (fall, rockfall, etc), and then sue the landowner. That mentality (I chose to do something inherently dangerous, got hurt, and now I'm going to blame someone else) is quite alien to me.

                            A second example: Universal Studios in LA. There's a outdoor escalator, going down a not very steep hill. I counted something like six separate instructions on how to use the escalator played on a loop over loudspeakers as you went down the escalator - Face forward at all times - Hold on to the handrail - Do not lean over the sides - things like that. Basic Common Sense, yet in America it has to be blasted at you. I know, to avoid lawsuits.. ..but again, it's the culture of "I can goof off, hurt myself (somehow) and sue you to compensate me for my lack of responsibility".

                            I wonder if/how much this 'culture' feeds into people's decision-making, where the link between choices and consequences that follow has been weakened.
                            I mostly do not like to see us turn to laws to improve things. But this is one exception for me. The law should spell out clearly and concisely that individuals are responsible for their actions and not owners of places where they did something dumb. One problem is that it is the same mindset that rules against uninvolved land owners (or such) as that which says, I deserve to be able to blame someone else for my foolishness.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              I mostly do not like to see us turn to laws to improve things. But this is one exception for me. The law should spell out clearly and concisely that individuals are responsible for their actions and not owners of places where they did something dumb. One problem is that it is the same mindset that rules against uninvolved land owners (or such) as that which says, I deserve to be able to blame someone else for my foolishness.
                              I'm pretty sure adults are not toddlers! So why would people want to have the same level of responsibility for their own actions as a young child???
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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