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Why I usually stay out of the income ineqality discussions

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  • #16
    Alexis de Tocqueville published Democracy in America; the second and last volume was published 1840. Some observations from the book were that 1) America generally prospered and 2) the haves were generous taking care of the haves-not. In that time, the federal government hardly at all affected the lives of common folk.

    Today, the policy of the federal government is to boost dependence on the government, even when it hurts productivity. One consequence is the haves have less means to help the haves-not. Also the haves tend much more to leave matters of welfare to the federal government instead of looking for effective ways to help the needy.
    (There is Doctors Without Borders, though.)
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Well, yeah, cause Social Security was supposed to be a safety net, not a hammock.
      It's a fraud. SS tax receipts are routinely spent as soon as they come in. The SS "trust fund" is an accounting fiction, just as much as if Mom owed Dad something, but the family is still solvent. Of course the federal government is not solvent, which makes the fund essentially zero or worse.
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        Alexis de Tocqueville published Democracy in America; the second and last volume was published 1840. Some observations from the book were that 1) America generally prospered and 2) the haves were generous taking care of the haves-not. In that time, the federal government hardly at all affected the lives of common folk.

        Today, the policy of the federal government is to boost dependence on the government, even when it hurts productivity. One consequence is the haves have less means to help the haves-not. Also the haves tend much more to leave matters of welfare to the federal government instead of looking for effective ways to help the needy.
        (There is Doctors Without Borders, though.)
        the haves took care of the have-nots.
        Then those haves died.
        and their kids don't give a crap about the have-nots
        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

        Comment


        • #19
          I think part of the problem with this discussion is that a lot of things that people call "wealth inequality" really aren't. For instance, you have people flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant claiming "wealth inequality" and demanding $18/hour while making zero effort to improve their situation. Or people who cry about "wealth inequality" while they sit on their butts all day collecting government assistance.

          There are actually very few people in this country who are truly unable to earn some sort of living, and that may be why Americans seem to have become less generous, they've become suspicious of the guy who spends all day with his hand out.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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          • #20
            I have two disabled children who are unable to work. I was a teacher for 30 years before I too retired with Bipolar Disorder. My kids are autistic. They aren't going to get 'better'. My family survives because of government welfare. I don't have any pride issues about it, I simply can't afford to. I definitely believe that government has a role in providing meaningful income to the most vulnerable in our society. Now, that includes me.

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            • #21
              I only tried to check into "government assistance" ONE TIME when my wife and I were young, with a small child. We were told we would be denied because we owned two cars. One of them was an old VW station wagon, barely running, and the other was an old Ford Fairlane with a blown engine, and no money to fix it. That didn't matter - it eliminated us from even APPLYING for assistance. We made it anyway.

              However, I have to admit, that kinda "hardened" my beliefs on "government assistance", because I saw so much abuse -- even a lady coming into the shoe repair shop where I was getting a pair of shoes re-soled, and this lady all dressed to the nines was bragging that she had more food stamps than she could ever use, and she was waving them around asking if anybody needed them.

              In my Police work, too, I saw lots of abuses, where kids were going barefoot and barely clothed, but Daddy came home with 2 12 packs of Bud.

              It's easy to get jaded when you see abuses all around, and you yourself can't get help. But, again --- we made it.

              As I got older, I saw many legitimate needs, and even helped people apply for whatever government programs would assist them. I have been involved in Habitat for Humanity for years, and have learned about community programs, grants, assistance, etc to help some of the people to whom we minister.

              SO..... I still deeply resent the cheats and abuses of the system, but I am well aware, and not the least bit resentful of, the fact that there are people who simply need help because they are, through no fault of their own, in deep hurt.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                It's a fraud. SS tax receipts are routinely spent as soon as they come in. The SS "trust fund" is an accounting fiction, just as much as if Mom owed Dad something, but the family is still solvent. Of course the federal government is not solvent, which makes the fund essentially zero or worse.
                It was not always like that.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                  the haves took care of the have-nots.
                  Then those haves died.
                  and their kids don't give a crap about the have-nots
                  It was more that the nanny state stepped in and the obligation felt by the haves was drastically reduced.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                    I have two disabled children who are unable to work. I was a teacher for 30 years before I too retired with Bipolar Disorder. My kids are autistic. They aren't going to get 'better'. My family survives because of government welfare. I don't have any pride issues about it, I simply can't afford to. I definitely believe that government has a role in providing meaningful income to the most vulnerable in our society. Now, that includes me.
                    It does have a role and an obligation. Many years ago it might not have been the same, but in today's America the obligation exists.

                    I have an autistic grandson, but he is able to take care of himself. He will probably never improve his lot, but if he was put into a position of greater responsibility he could deal with it. Not true of all autistics.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      ... So, that is why I do not like to discuss income inequality. ...
                      Very good thread. I think you should post much more often in inequality threads.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον∑
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        Very good thread. I think you should post much more often in inequality threads.
                        Yeah!
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          I think part of the problem with this discussion is that a lot of things that people call "wealth inequality" really aren't. For instance, you have people flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant claiming "wealth inequality" and demanding $18/hour while making zero effort to improve their situation. Or people who cry about "wealth inequality" while they sit on their butts all day collecting government assistance.

                          There are actually very few people in this country who are truly unable to earn some sort of living, and that may be why Americans seem to have become less generous, they've become suspicious of the guy who spends all day with his hand out.
                          I just read about a machine robot called Alpha that can make 360 hamburgers per hour, and waits till cooking is done before slicing fresh tomatoes and onions for them.
                          Maybe hamburger flippers find themselves out the door soon.

                          then they'll be forced to better themselves (do a job they hate but makes more money, but probably not enough to finish paying off student loan before it goes obsolete too
                          To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            It was not always like that.
                            No, the "trust fund" was a fraud right from the start IIRC. The "bonds" held by the fund are by law not marketable.
                            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                            [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                              I just read about a machine robot called Alpha that can make 360 hamburgers per hour, and waits till cooking is done before slicing fresh tomatoes and onions for them.
                              Maybe hamburger flippers find themselves out the door soon.

                              then they'll be forced to better themselves (do a job they hate but makes more money, but probably not enough to finish paying off student loan before it goes obsolete too
                              To be sure, increased use of robots do greatly to idle people. Also, wealth redistribution is easier thanks to robots; fewer workers than before are needed to support each idled or disabled person; each worker plus associated robots produce much more on the average. But lack of vocational/business education is a big problem; our schools can be much better; the government should end its involvement in the education of our kids.
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                                No, the "trust fund" was a fraud right from the start IIRC. The "bonds" held by the fund are by law not marketable.
                                You may be right.
                                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                                Comment

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