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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Because the cartons typically come from Virginia and North Carolina in a black market scheme by organized crime cartels. Virginia has a $5 per pack lower tax than New York, so a single carton can be sold one by one for a substantial profit. A Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent estimated that a car can carry 10 cases of cigarettes — there are 60 cartons in a case — with an estimated profit of $34,000. Upgrade to a van, and 50 cases can turn a $170,000 profit. A large truckload can haul 800 cases and net a profit of $4 million.

    Source: http://taxfoundation.org/article/cigarette-taxes-and-cigarette-smuggling-state


    •The highest inbound cigarette smuggling rates are in New York (56.9 percent), Arizona (51.5 percent), New Mexico (48.1 percent), Washington (48 percent), and Wisconsin (34.6 percent).
    •The highest outbound smuggling rates are in New Hampshire (24.2 percent), Wyoming (22.3 percent), Idaho (21.3 percent), Virginia (21.1 percent), and Delaware (20.9 percent).


    New York is the highest net importer of smuggled cigarettes, totaling 56.9 percent of the total cigarette market in the state. New York also has the highest state cigarette tax ($4.35 per pack), not counting the local New York City cigarette tax (an additional $1.50 per pack). Smuggling in New York has risen sharply since 2006 (+59 percent), as has the tax rate (+190 percent).

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: http://hamptonroads.com/2012/09/virginia-crime-panel-examining-cigarette-trafficking


    Cigarette smuggling has become so lucrative that organized crime is getting involved, and many former drug dealers have switched to peddling contraband smokes instead of narcotics, the Virginia State Crime Commission was told Wednesday.

    © Copyright Original Source



    It's dangerous, and getting more so. The law isn't stupid.
    It may not be stupid, but without the nanny tax, it would probably be unnecessary.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      It may not be stupid, but without the nanny tax, it would probably be unnecessary.
      It was a politically expedient source of revenue for New York. It is what it is.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Because the cartons typically come from Virginia and North Carolina in a black market scheme by organized crime cartels. Virginia has a $5 per pack lower tax than New York, so a single carton can be sold one by one for a substantial profit. A Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent estimated that a car can carry 10 cases of cigarettes — there are 60 cartons in a case — with an estimated profit of $34,000. Upgrade to a van, and 50 cases can turn a $170,000 profit. A large truckload can haul 800 cases and net a profit of $4 million.

        Source: http://taxfoundation.org/article/cigarette-taxes-and-cigarette-smuggling-state


        •The highest inbound cigarette smuggling rates are in New York (56.9 percent), Arizona (51.5 percent), New Mexico (48.1 percent), Washington (48 percent), and Wisconsin (34.6 percent).
        •The highest outbound smuggling rates are in New Hampshire (24.2 percent), Wyoming (22.3 percent), Idaho (21.3 percent), Virginia (21.1 percent), and Delaware (20.9 percent).


        New York is the highest net importer of smuggled cigarettes, totaling 56.9 percent of the total cigarette market in the state. New York also has the highest state cigarette tax ($4.35 per pack), not counting the local New York City cigarette tax (an additional $1.50 per pack). Smuggling in New York has risen sharply since 2006 (+59 percent), as has the tax rate (+190 percent).

        © Copyright Original Source



        Source: http://hamptonroads.com/2012/09/virginia-crime-panel-examining-cigarette-trafficking


        Cigarette smuggling has become so lucrative that organized crime is getting involved, and many former drug dealers have switched to peddling contraband smokes instead of narcotics, the Virginia State Crime Commission was told Wednesday.

        © Copyright Original Source



        It's dangerous, and getting more so. The law isn't stupid.
        But from the accounts, this guy wasn't bootlegging cigarettes. He was selling loosies. If he had set up some enterprise selling cartons of bootlegged cigarettes that would be one thing. This seems more like just some way to make a few extra bucks.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          It was a politically expedient source of revenue for New York. It is what it is.
          Well, it still doesn't change the fact that this guy was violating a law to make money, and it's pretty obvious even from the video that he KNEW it was illegal, and had had numerous encounters with the police over it.

          He keeps claiming the wasn't selling anything "this time" --- is it even in dispute that he was, in fact, immediately prior to the arrest, selling loosies?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            Because the cartons typically come from Virginia and North Carolina in a black market scheme by organized crime cartels. Virginia has a $5 per pack lower tax than New York, so a single carton can be sold one by one for a substantial profit. A Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent estimated that a car can carry 10 cases of cigarettes — there are 60 cartons in a case — with an estimated profit of $34,000. Upgrade to a van, and 50 cases can turn a $170,000 profit. A large truckload can haul 800 cases and net a profit of $4 million.

            Source: http://taxfoundation.org/article/cigarette-taxes-and-cigarette-smuggling-state


            •The highest inbound cigarette smuggling rates are in New York (56.9 percent), Arizona (51.5 percent), New Mexico (48.1 percent), Washington (48 percent), and Wisconsin (34.6 percent).
            •The highest outbound smuggling rates are in New Hampshire (24.2 percent), Wyoming (22.3 percent), Idaho (21.3 percent), Virginia (21.1 percent), and Delaware (20.9 percent).


            New York is the highest net importer of smuggled cigarettes, totaling 56.9 percent of the total cigarette market in the state. New York also has the highest state cigarette tax ($4.35 per pack), not counting the local New York City cigarette tax (an additional $1.50 per pack). Smuggling in New York has risen sharply since 2006 (+59 percent), as has the tax rate (+190 percent).

            © Copyright Original Source



            Source: http://hamptonroads.com/2012/09/virginia-crime-panel-examining-cigarette-trafficking


            Cigarette smuggling has become so lucrative that organized crime is getting involved, and many former drug dealers have switched to peddling contraband smokes instead of narcotics, the Virginia State Crime Commission was told Wednesday.

            © Copyright Original Source



            It's dangerous, and getting more so. The law isn't stupid.
            The tax disparity necessitating the law is stupid. This is a case of the unintended consequences outweighing the purported value of the intent.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              But from the accounts, this guy wasn't bootlegging cigarettes. He was selling loosies. If he had set up some enterprise selling cartons of bootlegged cigarettes that would be one thing. This seems more like just some way to make a few extra bucks.
              The law has to do with avoiding the tax stamp requirement - selling cigarettes without the tax stamp, and loosies are specifically mentioned.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                The law has to do with avoiding the tax stamp requirement - selling cigarettes without the tax stamp, and loosies are specifically mentioned.
                That is all in regard to retailers, not individuals. If he bought his cigs from a licensed retailer, then the tax has been paid. So why can't he sell a couple of loosies?

                If you and I went to a store up there and said "let's split a pack of cigs" and you gave me half of the cost, and I bought the pack and gave you half of them, what would be wrong with that? It would be basically the same thing as selling you 10 loosies.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  That is all in regard to retailers, not individuals. If he bought his cigs from a licensed retailer, then the tax has been paid. So why can't he sell a couple of loosies?

                  If you and I went to a store up there and said "let's split a pack of cigs" and you gave me half of the cost, and I bought the pack and gave you half of them, what would be wrong with that? It would be basically the same thing as selling you 10 loosies.
                  I don't think so --- I think it's ANYBODY. The law I cited from NYCity's website doesn't specify businesses. Take the case of Lonnie Loosie who has been arrested multiple times. The law references "acting like a cigarette retailer without a license". An individual could certainly "act like a retailer".
                  Last edited by Cow Poke; 12-04-2014, 09:38 AM.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    The tax disparity necessitating the law is stupid. This is a case of the unintended consequences outweighing the purported value of the intent.
                    That's New York for you...
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I don't think so --- I think it's ANYBODY. The law I cited from NYCity's website doesn't specify businesses. Take the case of Lonnie Loosie who has been arrested multiple times. The law references "acting like a cigarette retailer without a license". An individual could certainly "act like a retailer".
                      OK. I don't dispute that it is illegal, just that it is stupid. And like OBP(?) said, it is makes a black market where there wouldn't be one because of the law.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        That's New York for you...
                        Yep, any thing to squeeze that last tax dollar out of you.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          OK. I don't dispute that it is illegal, just that it is stupid. And like OBP(?) said, it is makes a black market where there wouldn't be one because of the law.
                          I think I said that.

                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          So, what crime was Garner committing when confronted by police? Selling single or "loose" cigarettes.
                          WHY was he selling single or "loose" cigarettes? Because there was a market for them.
                          WHY was there a market for them? Because the NANNY state had taxed a pack of cigarettes so high that it created a whole new black market.

                          So, Garner was arrested, and subsequently died, for circumventing a NANNY state law.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            The law isn't stupid.
                            I am with CP on this one. The nanny state mindset is the real danger here. Smoking is dumb, but you can never outlaw stupidity.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              It was a politically expedient source of revenue for New York. It is what it is.
                              New York, along with the rest of the nation, should be cutting expenditures not trying to collect more and more taxes.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                This is speculation but I would guess even if it wasn't a way around the tax law, most locations wouldn't want people selling loose cigarettes because they couldn't be sure what was in the cigarettes. But no doubt the tax code is the primary rationale.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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