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  • #16
    Okay, I'm thoroughly perplexed by this incident. As this news article reports, "In ruling Garner's death a homicide, the city medical examiner said police officers killed him by compressing his neck and chest. His health problems, including asthma and obesity, were contributing factors, the medical examiner said."

    Furthermore, NYPD protocol prohibits the use of chokeholds. If Garner's death has been ruled a homicide and the officer performed that fatal move in violation of protocol, what exactly is the jury's reasoning for no indictment?
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by square_peg View Post
      Okay, I'm thoroughly perplexed by this incident. As this news article reports, "In ruling Garner's death a homicide, the city medical examiner said police officers killed him by compressing his neck and chest. His health problems, including asthma and obesity, were contributing factors, the medical examiner said."

      Furthermore, NYPD protocol prohibits the use of chokeholds. If Garner's death has been ruled a homicide and the officer performed that fatal move in violation of protocol, what exactly is the jury's reasoning for no indictment?

      OK, listen carefully.......



















































      I don't have a clue.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Let's not try and downplay the crime. Regardless of how dumb we think the law might be, the fact is he was doing something illegal, and based on the video, the police spent several minutes quietly trying to convince him to surrender peacefully, and he was put in a chokehold only after he shoved a cop who attempted to grab his arm.

        You know I had no problem with the Mike Brown thing but this one here seems like a serious over reaction. I mean if you can find the longer video they don't even try to give the man CPR or help him in any way after he goes unconscious. They just let him lay there. If you or I Mountain were involved we would have tried to save the guy - wouldn't we?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
          Okay, I'm thoroughly perplexed by this incident. As this news article reports, "In ruling Garner's death a homicide, the city medical examiner said police officers killed him by compressing his neck and chest. His health problems, including asthma and obesity, were contributing factors, the medical examiner said."

          Furthermore, NYPD protocol prohibits the use of chokeholds. If Garner's death has been ruled a homicide and the officer performed that fatal move in violation of protocol, what exactly is the jury's reasoning for no indictment?
          Homicide =/= murder

          The ruling was that the takedown maneuver was legal and the resulting death was accidental due to the man's poor health.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            You know I had no problem with the Mike Brown thing but this one here seems like a serious over reaction. I mean if you can find the longer video they don't even try to give the man CPR or help him in any way after he goes unconscious. They just let him lay there. If you or I Mountain were involved we would have tried to save the guy - wouldn't we?


            It looks like he was breathing, but labored while laying there, so you would not want to do any CPR in that case. Not much they could do but wait for the ambulance. CPR is only used if the guy's heart stops and he is not breathing.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              It looks like he was breathing, but labored while laying there, so you would not want to do any CPR in that case. Not much they could do but wait for the ambulance. CPR is only used if the guy's heart stops and he is not breathing.
              That's the problem with this case. People look at the video, and what they think they're seeing isn't what they're actually seeing. It's a good example of why body cameras aren't the answer because video is still open to interpretation.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                It looks like he was breathing, but labored while laying there, so you would not want to do any CPR in that case. Not much they could do but wait for the ambulance. CPR is only used if the guy's heart stops and he is not breathing.
                Listen, as a former fire fighter I have used CPR in the field a number of times. And I'm not at all sure that he was still breathing. I'm sorry this whole thing was so unnecessary.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYSnp1UGVGc
                Last edited by seer; 12-04-2014, 07:35 AM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  You can't tell from the video if he was breathing or not. According to the paramedics, he was breathing when they loaded him on the ambulance, and he died from cardiac arrest on the way to the hospital.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    You can't tell from the video if he was breathing or not. According to the paramedics, he was breathing when they loaded him on the ambulance, and he died from cardiac arrest on the way to the hospital.
                    Perhaps, but it still all was so unnecessary.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Listen, as a former fire fighter I have used CPR in the field a number of times. And I'm not at all sure that he was still breathing. I'm sorry this whole thing was so unnecessary.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYSnp1UGVGc
                      One thing I notice is that the officer that they show in the photos as being charged with using the chokehold was not the one who did. He was the one who was grabbing his arm when another cop came up behind him and did the choke hold.


                      I really think a law against selling loosies is dumb. If I buy something, I am allowed to sell it, right? The state gets their taxes when he bought the packs at the store. And it wasn't like he was setting up a business enterprise. He was making a few extra bucks selling cigarettes one at a time. As long as he was not selling them to minors, I don't see the problem. If someone wanted a bunch of cigs, they would just go buy a pack at the store so this wasn't some big money making scheme.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Perhaps, but it still all was so unnecessary.
                        It was unnecessary for him to resist arrest, too. It's not like he hadn't been through this many, many times before. He knew what he was doing was against the law.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          One thing I notice is that the officer that they show in the photos as being charged with using the chokehold was not the one who did. He was the one who was grabbing his arm when another cop came up behind him and did the choke hold.


                          I really think a law against selling loosies is dumb. If I buy something, I am allowed to sell it, right? The state gets their taxes when he bought the packs at the store. And it wasn't like he was setting up a business enterprise. He was making a few extra bucks selling cigarettes one at a time. As long as he was not selling them to minors, I don't see the problem. If someone wanted a bunch of cigs, they would just go buy a pack at the store so this wasn't some big money making scheme.
                          Yeah, it's a dumb law.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Homicide =/= murder

                            The ruling was that the takedown maneuver was legal and the resulting death was accidental due to the man's poor health.
                            But using a chokehold, which the video shows clearly did happen, is illegal, and while his poor health may have been contributing factors, it seems from the M.E's report that the chokehold initiated it.
                            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                              But using a chokehold, which the video shows clearly did happen, is illegal, and while his poor health may have been contributing factors, it seems from the M.E's report that the chokehold initiated it.
                              Another contributing factor is that he was committing a crime. And not his first. Is that in dispute?
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                I really think a law against selling loosies is dumb. If I buy something, I am allowed to sell it, right? The state gets their taxes when he bought the packs at the store. And it wasn't like he was setting up a business enterprise. He was making a few extra bucks selling cigarettes one at a time. As long as he was not selling them to minors, I don't see the problem. If someone wanted a bunch of cigs, they would just go buy a pack at the store so this wasn't some big money making scheme.
                                Because the cartons typically come from Virginia and North Carolina in a black market scheme by organized crime cartels. Virginia has a $5 per pack lower tax than New York, so a single carton can be sold one by one for a substantial profit. A Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent estimated that a car can carry 10 cases of cigarettes — there are 60 cartons in a case — with an estimated profit of $34,000. Upgrade to a van, and 50 cases can turn a $170,000 profit. A large truckload can haul 800 cases and net a profit of $4 million.

                                Source: http://taxfoundation.org/article/cigarette-taxes-and-cigarette-smuggling-state


                                •The highest inbound cigarette smuggling rates are in New York (56.9 percent), Arizona (51.5 percent), New Mexico (48.1 percent), Washington (48 percent), and Wisconsin (34.6 percent).
                                •The highest outbound smuggling rates are in New Hampshire (24.2 percent), Wyoming (22.3 percent), Idaho (21.3 percent), Virginia (21.1 percent), and Delaware (20.9 percent).


                                New York is the highest net importer of smuggled cigarettes, totaling 56.9 percent of the total cigarette market in the state. New York also has the highest state cigarette tax ($4.35 per pack), not counting the local New York City cigarette tax (an additional $1.50 per pack). Smuggling in New York has risen sharply since 2006 (+59 percent), as has the tax rate (+190 percent).

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Source: http://hamptonroads.com/2012/09/virginia-crime-panel-examining-cigarette-trafficking


                                Cigarette smuggling has become so lucrative that organized crime is getting involved, and many former drug dealers have switched to peddling contraband smokes instead of narcotics, the Virginia State Crime Commission was told Wednesday.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                It's dangerous, and getting more so. The law isn't stupid.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

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