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  • #91
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I was a cop in the military. As much as I enjoyed drugs (including meth) before I joined, I don't currently think that legalization of meth (which was also an issue on base) would be the most satisfactory answer. Course, the military has their own ways of handling offenders that would be seen as unconstitutional outside that controlled environment.
    It will be interesting to see how the legalization of marijuana pans out.

    Can that be fixed, or is there no hope?
    For the time being, I think it's too hot of an issue. One extreme wants a TOTAL ban, the other extreme wants total FREEDOM. It's like, "I can't agree on the stuff we agree on, cause I lose my leverage to get the other stuff I want".

    I think SO MUCH of national politics is like that --- holding even the agreeable parts hostage to what I ultimately want. Kinda like the "good" being the enemy of the "perfect".
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      I'm not sure I entirely understand this view. Back in the early 90s, I was a associated with the anarcho-punk scene, and they wanted less government as well. But the views and goals of those people I know who are still into the anracho scene are polar opposite to conservatives I know who also advocate for "less government". It seems like what many people mean by "I want less government", is that they want less government in the things they support, but more government in the things they don't support, but maybe that's true for a lot of non-conservatives as well, even if they don't actually say so in so many words. Is more government inherently bad? Certain nations that have a lot more government than we do seem to be better off than we are. Then again, there are some nations that seem to flourish where government is less restricted.
      I guess I should have been clearer. I completely object to the Federal government being involved in the daily lives of citizens. Even State governments are pretty remote in most places. If a city could pass a gun control law by a 2/3 popular vote I could not object. My point is government beyond the local level should not be interfering in the daily lives of people.

      I do not agree that gun control laws would ever eliminate guns in the hand of criminals or even otherwise law abiding people. Being able to protect your self and your family in time of need is not something that everyone would give up easily, and they should not.

      I admit to being an extremist in the area of gun control, even though I am not really a gun person.

      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Personally, like you (I think), I have less of an issue with more government involvement in the drug war (papers on the subject seem to suggest that prohibition of alcohol, for instance, was largely effective http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/), but (maybe its a holdover from my anarcho days) I'm also sympathetic to the idea of less governance.
      This is interesting. This is the first time I have ever heard or read anyone say this. I was a little disappointed that lower per capita consumption of alcohol was significantly lower was simply stated with no source or explanation. I am curious as to how the data was obtained since alcohol was not subjected to any controls.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        It will be interesting to see how the legalization of marijuana pans out.
        There's a big difference between marijuana and meth. Bigger difference between marijuana and, say, heroin, or crack (in my opinion).

        For the time being, I think it's too hot of an issue. One extreme wants a TOTAL ban, the other extreme wants total FREEDOM. It's like, "I can't agree on the stuff we agree on, cause I lose my leverage to get the other stuff I want".

        I think SO MUCH of national politics is like that --- holding even the agreeable parts hostage to what I ultimately want. Kinda like the "good" being the enemy of the "perfect".
        Yeah, I agree. Doesn't it make you sad or angry, though, that we don't have an answer for the issue? I mean, our nation just wants to debate these things while folks in the OP are dying. Man, that's what's so frustrating to me about our political system, and why I choose not to participate. We'd rather sit on our hands shouting at each other than actually doing things. That's even true on the local level. Drives me nuts.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          There's a big difference between marijuana and meth. Bigger difference between marijuana and, say, heroin, or crack (in my opinion).
          No argument whatsoever. It still might be informative.

          Yeah, I agree. Doesn't it make you sad or angry, though, that we don't have an answer for the issue? I mean, our nation just wants to debate these things while folks in the OP are dying. Man, that's what's so frustrating to me about our political system, and why I choose not to participate. We'd rather sit on our hands shouting at each other than actually doing things. That's even true on the local level. Drives me nuts.
          Personally, I don't think our founding fathers ever envisioned career politicians and lobbyists like we have. And the two party system doesn't seem to allow enough oxygen for a "let's clean this up" party.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            ?
            If you read my civics thread about moderation and extremism you will see who I mean.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
              If you read my civics thread about moderation and extremism you will see who I mean.
              He's clearly talking about me.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                He's clearly talking about me.
                It is the one to whom he gives a sop, when he has dipped it.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  I guess I should have been clearer. I completely object to the Federal government being involved in the daily lives of citizens. Even State governments are pretty remote in most places. If a city could pass a gun control law by a 2/3 popular vote I could not object. My point is government beyond the local level should not be interfering in the daily lives of people.
                  I agree, but I honestly don't see that happening even within my lifetime. At least, not in the US.

                  I do not agree that gun control laws would ever eliminate guns in the hand of criminals or even otherwise law abiding people. Being able to protect your self and your family in time of need is not something that everyone would give up easily, and they should not.
                  Again, I find it so incredibly sad that we live in a nation of so much promise, but with so much fear. Doesn't that strike you odd at all? I've lived in countries where you can walk around in the very worse part of town and almost never ever worry about having a gun pulled on you, but in the US, the (in my opinion) greatest nation on earth, that is simply not realistic. Why is that? And how can we change it?

                  I admit to being an extremist in the area of gun control, even though I am not really a gun person.
                  Why though?

                  This is interesting. This is the first time I have ever heard or read anyone say this. I was a little disappointed that lower per capita consumption of alcohol was significantly lower was simply stated with no source or explanation. I am curious as to how the data was obtained since alcohol was not subjected to any controls.
                  Yeah, I found the results surprising too, especially since the common knowledge seems to be that prohibition was a complete bust. But the source seems legit. Jack Blocker specializes in American temperance history, and founded and presides over the Alcohol & Temperance History Group, which is apparently a collective of over 200 historians who study the subject. And the American Journal of Public Heath is peer reviewed as far as I can tell.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Again, I find it so incredibly sad that we live in a nation of so much promise, but with so much fear. Doesn't that strike you odd at all? I've lived in countries where you can walk around in the very worse part of town and almost never ever worry about having a gun pulled on you, but in the US, the (in my opinion) greatest nation on earth, that is simply not realistic. Why is that? And how can we change it?
                    Come to Montana. Literally every person you see owns a gun (minimal exaggeration here) and I've never in my life been afraid of that, or even had reason to.
                    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                      Come to Montana. Literally every person you see owns a gun (minimal exaggeration here) and I've never in my life been afraid of that, or even had reason to.
                      I lived in Montana for a year in the military! Probably helps that there is so little population density. Plenty enough room to stretch out without worrying about offending those around you. Course, its easy to get lost in that big sky country in the middle of the plains just by taking a short drive into nowhere.

                      The only place I felt slightly uneasy was on the Blackfoot reservation. My black friends weren't welcomed at all (maybe its just my experience, but Indians do NOT seem to like black people), but one time I went up to the reservation with my dad and brother (we're part Cherokee (confirmed with 23andme), and my brother is mistaken for pure native all the time in the UP), and we were very warmly accepted in the areas we went. I remember one time we went to a "restaurant" on the reservation. This place was a complete dive. Had picnic table and folding chairs for tables and chairs. I ordered the "Nappy Burger". My dad and brother ordered the "Indian Taco". There was no one in the place except us. We waited an hour before our food came. Thought for a second we were getting reversed discriminated or something. Server finally came to our table to explain that all of the food was hand made fresh, from the sweet bread that the tacos and burger bun were made on, to the fries that were freshly cut and fried. The burger, was, no kidding, bigger than my head. I ate a pie shaped piece out of it, and was completely stuffed. Extremely tasty. The fries were excellent as well. All in all, it was a fun trip, especially visiting the snow topped mountains in July.

                      I'm a city boy though, so Big Sky Montana wasn't really my bag, but it sure is a nice place to visit.
                      Last edited by Adrift; 11-29-2014, 09:53 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Again, I find it so incredibly sad that we live in a nation of so much promise, but with so much fear. Doesn't that strike you odd at all? I've lived in countries where you can walk around in the very worse part of town and almost never ever worry about having a gun pulled on you, but in the US, the (in my opinion) greatest nation on earth, that is simply not realistic. Why is that? And how can we change it?
                        The quote of the day from another forum I occasionally visit:

                        Originally posted by Concerned Degenerate
                        I think the European Union was in many ways a good idea. Integrating the European economies through trade was, and is a great way to build wealthy societies and prevent wars (without European infighting i would be posting from a spaceship powered by sexual health and optimism right now, and Constantinople would still be christian)

                        The EU today is a monstrosity that tramples on the rights of the European peoples in general as well as individuals. EU citizens can freely travel and work in all European member states (Reminder: we had this freedom without the EU before national and international socialism ruined everything). This freedom is great when it means "Finnish engineer goes to Austria to help build a power plant", not so great when it means "thousands of Romanian gypsies make western Europe a worse place to live".
                        Roughly the same applies here. Fortunately, the truth seems to be coming out more and more as the days go by. In the spirit of Thanksgiving, I suggest you read Henry Dampier on the origins of the holiday. The descendants of the Puritans may have gone bad, but they most assuredly started out as far better men then we'll ever see in this life.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                          The quote of the day from another forum I occasionally visit:



                          Roughly the same applies here. Fortunately, the truth seems to be coming out more and more as the days go by. In the spirit of Thanksgiving, I suggest you read Henry Dampier on the origins of the holiday. The descendants of the Puritans may have gone bad, but they most assuredly started out as far better men then we'll ever see in this life.
                          Em. What does any of this have to do with the OP? Yes, ultimately, people round the world have done bad things that limit human potential and growth. I suppose we can trace that back to Cain, the first murderer, or Adam and Eve for our sin nature. But just because we're governed by sin nature doesn't mean we ought to roll over and die. I realize that real universal change for the better won't happen until Christ returns, but in the meantime, it seem to me that we should attempt to be good stewards with what we have.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            Em. What does any of this have to do with the OP? Yes, ultimately, people round the world have done bad things that limit human potential and growth. I suppose we can trace that back to Cain, the first murderer, or Adam and Eve for our sin nature. But just because we're governed by sin nature doesn't mean we ought to roll over and die. I realize that real universal change for the better won't happen until Christ returns, but in the meantime, it seem to me that we should attempt to be good stewards with what we have.
                            If you're still talking in terms of unfocused "human potential and growth" and "universal change for the better", your vocabulary is part of the problem. God's people are, in fact, a people:

                            Originally posted by Henry Dampier
                            Today, Americans have developed a guilt-complex about the native wars and the conquest of the continent. In some ways, this is understandable: the settlers, by and large, didn’t want to exterminate the Indians. They wanted to convert them to Christianity. Wherever the Indians did not convert, there had to be implacable conflict, because those natives who retained their culture did not respect the authority of colonial law. For this reason, it was difficult to mediate disputes between Christians and natives, because they did not share a common moral framework.
                            Neither do we with the liberal descendants of the Puritans, sadly.

                            In a sense, the guilt inculcated into American young people is motivated by regret, that the great conversion project in America did not really succeed to the extent that it did in South America, where the Catholic Church had far more success, even when there were countless wars between the conquistadors and the native empires. Even though the liberals of today would never express it like that, there is a sense of malaise, that relations between the settlers and the natives could have had more peaceful ends.
                            One may also note that despite (because of) the manifestly less peaceful methods of pacifying South America, Christianity did in fact spread there among the natives, though destroying the Aztec, Mayan, and Incan sacrificial empires no doubt had something to do with it.

                            It’s only thanks to the security provided by the victory of those Puritans that provides the luxury to moralize about what they did, to judge them as evil, for defending themselves from Native aggression. The scale of the defeat of the tribes was only so great because those same tribes made peace almost impossible to gain and maintain.

                            The Puritans were willing to give the Indians the ancient justice of eye-for-eye and tooth-for-tooth. Whereas the settlers had been burned in their farmhouses with the women and children, so did the Army to the Indians in their wigwams. When the Army found an Englishman who had converted to the Indian side, in Mather’s words, he was caught and executed.

                            In the Thanksgiving story as told today, the Puritans were proto-hippies, sharing because they cared. In actual history, they were the hardest, most righteous killers on the continent. That’s why we’re here, and the people whom they defeated live in trailers on reservations.[at the sufferance of their descendants, naturally.] We’re here to celebrate Thanksgiving thanks to the victorious English infantry who, under conditions so difficult that the modern mind struggles to understand, triumphed in an alien land against an implacable and wily enemy, over a period of years.

                            When they gave Thanksgiving, it was for victory:

                            June 29. Was observed as a day of publick Thanksgiving to celebrate the praises of that God, who that begun to answer Prayer. And although there is cause for Humiliation before the Lord, inasmuch as the Sword is still drawn against us, nevertheless we are under deep engagement to make his praise glorious; considering how wonderfully he hath restrained and checked the insolency of the Heathen.

                            We have traded this righteous mentality for one of flagellation, of permanent guilt for a war conducted on just grounds — certainly more just grounds than the liberals of today, who attack their Puritan forebears, use to justify their various inane foreign wars.
                            They seem to prefer to make all sorts of noises about the evils of their enemies, then let their particular heathen pets do the killing for them, but the wars are wars just the same.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                              That's all good news and I'm glad.

                              The accidental shooting theme is interesting too. I imagine it's harder to kill someone accidentally with a hammer than it is with a gun.
                              This is the crux of the issue, I think. If it's not loaded and ready for use, a gun isn't much more than an expensive piece of decor, or part of a collection. But if it IS loaded and ready to use, its whole purpose is to be able to do a LOT of damage quickly and easily. Hence the occasional shooting deaths by 3-year-olds. It's that simple to use effectively.

                              Now, you might ask whether having a gun loaded and ready to use is cost-effective in practice. Sure, there are the marginal occasions where someone invades your home with intent to kill, just as there are the marginal occasions where toddlers shoot people. I would speculate that the vast majority of gun owners have NEVER needed their gun for self defense. Most of us use them for target practice, or hunting, or collecting. And when they're not being used for any of these things (except collecting) they are kept unloaded and in safe places.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                                If you're still talking in terms of unfocused "human potential and growth" and "universal change for the better", your vocabulary is part of the problem. God's people are, in fact, a people:



                                Neither do we with the liberal descendants of the Puritans, sadly.



                                One may also note that despite (because of) the manifestly less peaceful methods of pacifying South America, Christianity did in fact spread there among the natives, though destroying the Aztec, Mayan, and Incan sacrificial empires no doubt had something to do with it.



                                They seem to prefer to make all sorts of noises about the evils of their enemies, then let their particular heathen pets do the killing for them, but the wars are wars just the same.
                                Well, Alrighty then!


                                Anyways, back to the topic...

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