Guns

[Cow Poke]

It's a shame many of you guys are so suspicious of your federal government.

Yeah, that comes from CAREER POLITICIANS on BOTH sides of the isle doing what they can to keep their own butts and parties in office, rather than what's good for the Country at large.

Wouldn't be a good idea to have uniform gun laws across the nation?

Written by whom?

I totally agree with your comments about the design of guns. They are intended to hurt people, and hurt people with little effort. Even knives and hatchets have a multitude of other intended purposes.

I think it is worthwhile to distinguish between handguns and hunting riles.

[Adrift]

I have to disagree with you, brother... every town has their meth labs where enterprising criminals produce the drugs that have been made "illegal". With today's technology, you can actually "print" guns from composite materials, and just about any machine shop can manufacture a gun. Guns will still have to be available for police and military, and those guns don't always stay in police or military control. Plus, many of the former soviet states manufacture guns by the millions, either legally under license, or they make a slight variation and produce their own models. I can't see guns going away for many many years.

Hmm. I've heard of guns being "printed", but they don't usually last long with today's materials. One shot, and they'll fall apart. I can't see some thug in a ghetto having access to a 3D printer anyways. I suppose one could machine shop a gun, but can you imagine how expensive that would be? I've had parts machine shopped for my Mustang, and they're stupid expensive. Maybe if you knew a machinist, but I'm not sure I'd trust a machine shopped gun. Probably blow up in your face. Yeah, cops, and military are always going to have guns around. Those weapons are typically behind armed guards, or in very locked down locations, and wouldn't be very easy to access.

I mean, in comparison to how it is now, any joe-blow who's registered can go to a gun show pretty much anywhere in the US, and buy weapons and put them on the black market. The likelihood of a criminal getting weapons outside of these means seems much much harder. I guess some folks could buy their guns black market from Russia, but, again, the price would be completely jacked. Could the baddest of the bad still get guns. Obviously yes, but it wouldn't be nearly as easy as it is today.

I mean, again, if we're comparing guns to drugs, yeah, drugs are freaking easy to get right now, but as someone who went through an experimental phase, you couldn't get any drug you wanted at any time you wanted. There would be times when acid was completely dry. Heck, sometimes it'd be hard to score a dimebag depending on location, and the guy you were getting it from, but I imagine that scoring a dimebag in Colorado would be as easy as walking into your local legal distributor.

The idea that somehow making guns illegal will make them more abundant than they currently are seems counter-intuitive. I imagine, though, that the bigger fear is that the "bad guys" will have more guns than the "good guys", even if it is harder for the bad guys to score guns. Its seems really unfortunate to me, though, that we live in a country where we're terrified of that being the case. What kind of society do we live in where we are actually fearful of bad guys shooting up good guys on a regular basis that would force us to need guns to defend our very livelihood? From personal experience, the only good guys I've known who actually needed guns to protect themselves from a very real threat were old high school friends of mine who got robbed twice at gun point because they were selling weed, and the local dealers found out about it. Well, come to think of it, my brother, who is in the Border Patrol carries a gun pretty much 24/7, but he's never used it on an illegal, and he's caught his share of people crossing the border.

[pancreasman]

Yeah, that comes from CAREER POLITICIANS on BOTH sides of the isle doing what they can to keep their own butts and parties in office, rather than what's good for the Country at large.



Written by whom?



I think it is worthwhile to distinguish between handguns and hunting riles.

Yes, obviously hunting rifles are distinct from handguns.

I would think an objective examination of all gun laws state by state and their effects might at least pave the way to decent legislation. It's one of those times when people of the centre ought not be distracted by the shrill voices of the extremists. (Cue attack by the unholy trinity.)

[Cow Poke]

Hmm. I've heard of guns being "printed", but they don't usually last long with today's materials. One shot, and they'll fall apart. I can't see some thug in a ghetto having access to a 3D printer anyways.

No, it wouldn't be the thug in an alley. He would be the customer.

I suppose one could machine shop a gun, but can you imagine how expensive that would be?

I have a friend who does exactly that in his spare time in his own shop at home. Loads and reloads his own ammo, too.

I've had parts machine shopped for my Mustang, and they're stupid expensive.

Because they're specialty parts -- onesies and twosies.... the cost goes down significantly when you manufacture MANY.

Maybe if you knew a machinist, but I'm not sure I'd trust a machine shopped gun. Probably blow up in your face.

Have you ever watched "Sons of Guns"? (Discover Channel show whose star, sadly, was recently arrested on child molestation charges ) But in that show, they have KIDS (relatively speaking) machining custom firearms, and doing so quite effectively.

Yeah, cops, and military are always going to have guns around. Those weapons are typically behind armed guards, or in very locked down locations, and wouldn't be very easy to access. I mean, in comparison to how it is now, any joe-blow with a gun permit can go to a gun show anywhere in the US, and buy weapons and put them on them black market. The likelihood of a criminal getting weapons outside of these means seems much much harder. I guess some folks could buy their guns black market from Russia, but, again, the price would be completely jacked. Could the baddest of the bad still get guns. Obviously yes, but it wouldn't be nearly as easy as it is today. I mean, again, if we're comparing guns to drugs, yeah, drugs are freaking easy to get right now, but as someone who went through an experimental phase, you couldn't get any drug you wanted at any time you wanted. There would be times when acid was completely dry. Heck, sometimes it'd be hard to score a dimebag depending on location, and the guy you were getting it from, but I imagine that scoring a dimebag in Colorado would be as easy as walking into your local legal distributor. The idea that some how making guns illegal will make them more abundant than they currently are seems counter-intuitive. I imagine, though, that the bigger fear is that the "bad guys" will have more guns than the "good guys", even if it is harder for the bad guys to score guns. Its seems really unfortunate to me, though, that we live in a country where we're terrified of that being the case. What kind of society do we live in where we are actually fearful of bad guys shooting up good guys on a regular basis that would force us to need guns to defend our very livelihood? From personal experience, the only good guys I've known who actually needed guns to protect themselves from a very real threat were old high school friends of mine who got robbed twice at gun point because they were selling weed, and the local dealers found out about it. Well, come to think of it, my brother, who is in the Border Patrol carries a gun pretty much 24/7, but he's never used it on an illegal, and he's caught his share of people crossing the border.

I'm going to disengage, because we're going to be saying the same things over and over, maybe.... but I think guns are WAY easier to obtain than you'd ever imagine. And almost EVERY drug interdiction our police department affects, guns are part of the shipment / smuggling effort.

[Adrift]

It's a shame many of you guys are so suspicious of your federal government. Wouldn't be a good idea to have uniform gun laws across the nation?

That comes from the fact that our nation is too big, and we have too many people, and we are too divided on too many issues. As far as I can tell, we simply do not have the social cohesion that a place of nearly equal size, like, say, Australia does (for the most part). It just may be a problem of having a melting pot culture. I sincerely believe we're the greatest nation on earth, because we are so accepting of so many different peoples, but it comes with its weaknesses.

I totally agree with your comments about the design of guns. They are intended to hurt people, and hurt people with little effort. Even knives and hatchets have a multitude of other intended purposes.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, obviously hunting rifles are distinct from handguns.

I'm from old school military background where a "gun" is either a shotgun or an artillery piece.

I would think an objective examination of all gun laws state by state and their effects might at least pave the way to decent legislation. It's one of those times when people of the centre ought not be distracted by the shrill voices of the extremists. (Cue attack by the unholy trinity.)

So, wait.. I'm NOT part of the unholy trinity?


Anyway, I think a bit problem with "nationwide" or "federal" law would be that states have vastly differing opinions on what gun legislation should look like, or if it should be at all. Some of our New England states might want REALLY TOUGH gun laws, while states like Alaska, Texas, Wyoming, Arizona.... would want much more leeway. Since we are a representative republic (supposedly) each senator or representative would vote according to their constituent's wishes, except, of course, in cases where the gun lobby or anti-gun lobby swayed them otherwise.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, obviously hunting rifles are distinct from handguns.

I would think an objective examination of all gun laws state by state and their effects might at least pave the way to decent legislation. It's one of those times when people of the centre ought not be distracted by the shrill voices of the extremists. (Cue attack by the unholy trinity.)

I amen'd this one, too, just because you accidentally amen'd somebody else.

[Adrift]

No, it wouldn't be the thug in an alley. He would be the customer.


I have a friend who does exactly that in his spare time in his own shop at home. Loads and reloads his own ammo, too.



Because they're specialty parts -- onesies and twosies.... the cost goes down significantly when you manufacture MANY.

Well, that's the thing. I imagine, if guns were banned, mass printing, or mass machining guns would be extremely hard to do without getting caught. The expense would be astronomical for anyone, but especially the thug in the alley.

Have you ever watched "Sons of Guns"? (Discover Channel show whose star, sadly, was recently arrested on child molestation charges ) But in that show, they have KIDS (relatively speaking) machining custom firearms, and doing so quite effectively.

Yeah, I've seen episodes of that show. It seemed to me that they were essentially crafting parts for preexisting weapons. I simply can't imagine that happening in mass scale in a future US where guns are banned. I imagine our films of the future would be filled with FBI agents descending on underground gun manufacturers where guns for the typical thug would cost an arm and a leg, quite unlike how easily obtainable they are today.

I'm going to disengage, because we're going to be saying the same things over and over, maybe.... but I think guns are WAY easier to obtain than you'd ever imagine. And almost EVERY drug interdiction our police department affects, guns are part of the shipment / smuggling effort.

I think that's exactly my point. Guns are SO DANG EASY to obtain today. Its stupid simple to get a gun on the street. I imagine a future-world where that is simply not the case. Guns would be still be very accessible, but your average Tom, Dick, and Harry would have a much harder time than they do today scoring a piece.

I think for me my perspective has been skewed by the fact that I've lived in places where guns were extremely hard to come by. Where the culture was not so enamored by them. It seems that even our citizens in the US who don't want any part of gun culture, and decry gun violence, still wants guns. We LOVE guns, and we sure as heck don't want anyone telling us we can't have them. Again, its strange to view our national obsession from someone who considers himself, more or less, neutral on the subject.

[Adrift]

(Cue attack by the unholy trinity.)

?

[Cow Poke]

Well, that's the thing. I imagine, if guns were banned, mass printing, or mass machining guns would be extremely hard to do without getting caught.

Meth labs. They're hard to do without getting caught, but it doesn't keep people from doing it, because it's profitable -- it's a risk vs reward thing, just like so many things in life.

The expense would be astronomical for anyone, but especially the thug in the alley.

I really honestly don't think so.... do you know how much a good machinist makes? If he can make a lot more money to do something like make gun parts instead of pistons or flywheels... do you know how easy it is, for example, to convert a semi-auto rifle to fully auto? Nearly any machinist can do it.

Yeah, I've seen episodes of that show. It seemed to me that they were essentially crafting parts for preexisting weapons.

Not always -- they often built custom weapons from scratch.

I simply can't imagine that happening in mass scale in a future US where guns are banned. I imagine our films of the future would be filled with FBI agents descending on underground gun manufacturers where guns for the typical thug would cost an arm and a leg, quite unlike how easily obtainable they are today.

We're just going to have to disagree on this -- I don't think it's anywhere NEAR the expense you're imagining. Not to mention a myriad of foreign countries who will gladly step up to fill the void.

I think that's exactly my point. Guns are SO DANG EASY to obtain today. Its stupid simple to get a gun on the street.

yup! And it might get a little more challenging, but it's not at all unusual for even confiscated guns to "fall by the wayside" on their way to being destroyed.

I imagine a future-world where that is simply not the case. Guns would be still be very accessible, but your average Tom, Dick, and Harry would have a much harder time than they do today scoring a piece.

I think it would be a little more difficult, but just like it's not all that hard to obtain meth or even prescription drugs.... it's who you know. Why would you think it would be easier to control gun traffic than drug traffic? And pretty much the same "supply lines" could be used for either.

It's not all that difficult to smuggle guns and cell phones and drugs into prisons!

I think for me my perspective has been skewed by the fact that I've lived in places where guns were extremely hard to come by. Where the culture was not so enamored by them. It seems that even our citizens in the US who don't want any part of gun culture, and decry gun violence, still wants guns. We LOVE guns, and we sure as heck don't want anyone telling us we can't have them. Again, its strange to view our national obsession from someone who considers himself, more or less, neutral on the subject.

So, we're back to.... same thing with the drug war --- it would be so much easier if we could control the demand, the supply would dry up.

But, AS ALWAYS, I enjoy the discussion.

[Darth Executor]

?

That would be me, Epo and, uhh, Paprika I guess? Maybe pman can confirm who the mysterious third member of a trinity that mostly ignores his posts is.

[Adrift]

Meth labs. They're hard to do without getting caught, but it doesn't keep people from doing it, because it's profitable -- it's a risk vs reward thing, just like so many things in life.



I really honestly don't think so.... do you know how much a good machinist makes? If he can make a lot more money to do something like make gun parts instead of pistons or flywheels... do you know how easy it is, for example, to convert a semi-auto rifle to fully auto? Nearly any machinist can do it.



Not always -- they often built custom weapons from scratch.



We're just going to have to disagree on this -- I don't think it's anywhere NEAR the expense you're imagining. Not to mention a myriad of foreign countries who will gladly step up to fill the void.



yup! And it might get a little more challenging, but it's not at all unusual for even confiscated guns to "fall by the wayside" on their way to being destroyed.



I think it would be a little more difficult, but just like it's not all that hard to obtain meth or even prescription drugs.... it's who you know. Why would you think it would be easier to control gun traffic than drug traffic? And pretty much the same "supply lines" could be used for either.

It's not all that difficult to smuggle guns and cell phones and drugs into prisons!



So, we're back to.... same thing with the drug war --- it would be so much easier if we could control the demand, the supply would dry up.

But, AS ALWAYS, I enjoy the discussion.

I guess for me, the end point is...if a gun ban would be similar to the current meth ban, should we legalize meth? If they're that easy to manufacture, should we just stop fighting the war and let meth be legalized and controlled by the state the same way that guns currently are?

[Adrift]

That would be me, Epo and, uhh, Paprika I guess? Maybe pman can confirm who the mysterious third member of a trinity that mostly ignores his posts is.

Oh, well that makes sense then.

[Cow Poke]

I guess for me, the end point is...if a gun ban would be similar to the current meth ban, should we legalize meth?

That question was WAY easier for me to answer when I was a young cop.

If they're that easy to manufacture, should we just stop fighting the war and let meth be legalized and controlled by the state the same way that guns currently are?

Look at the last part of your sentence.... how, exactly, ARE guns being currently controlled? I think a HUGE part of the problem is that many of the EXISTING gun laws are not enforced.

[Adrift]

That question was WAY easier for me to answer when I was a young cop.

I was a cop in the military. As much as I enjoyed drugs (including meth) before I joined, I don't currently think that legalization of meth (which was also an issue on base) would be the most satisfactory answer. Course, the military has their own ways of handling offenders that would be seen as unconstitutional outside that controlled environment.

Look at the last part of your sentence.... how, exactly, ARE guns being currently controlled? I think a HUGE part of the problem is that many of the EXISTING gun laws are not enforced.

Can that be fixed, or is there no hope?