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  • Guns

    Ok, this thread is open to all, I'd just ask we keep the conversation about ideas and not 'you're an idiot'.

    Article

    Oklahoma woman shot dead by her 3 year old son after he finds loaded gun under couch. She was in the army BTW.

    I'm just using this article as a focus for the wider issue of gun death that the US has.

    Does the US have an issue with gun death (especially when compared to other countries)?

    Is there a way forward? What can we do, both as individuals and as communities?

    Is there a particularly Christian response to this issue? What should it be?


    You know I'm a demon filled progressive pinko communist with an iPad. You can probably guess where at least some of my thoughts lie, so I will not even post them. I'm interested in how you might respond.

  • #2
    Yes, the US does have a problem with gun death compared to other countries. (If viewed from a non political stance, I don't think this should be a particularly controversial statement, even among gun enthusiasts.) There is no particularly easy way to lower this, though, because guns are such an entrenched part of the culture. Even if all gun sales were banned from here on out and even if this was enforceable, there are such a staggering amount of guns already on the street that the problem would not go away.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Yes, the US does have a problem with gun death compared to other countries. (If viewed from a non political stance, I don't think this should be a particularly controversial statement, even among gun enthusiasts.) There is no particularly easy way to lower this, though, because guns are such an entrenched part of the culture. Even if all gun sales were banned from here on out and even if this was enforceable, there are such a staggering amount of guns already on the street that the problem would not go away.
      Yes I agree with you. Pardon my ignorance but does it have something to do with handguns? Don't Canadians have nearly the same number of firearms per capita but nothing like the gun death rates?

      Comment


      • #4
        http://www.top5ofanything.com/index.php?h=cd8296da

        Murders 2007 compared to Murders 2011 and Percent Change

        1
        Firearms 10,129 8,583 - 15.26%
        (decrease)

        2
        Knives or cutting instruments 1,817 1,694 - 6.76%
        (decrease)

        3
        Other weapon or
        weapon not stated 1,005 853 - 15.12%
        (decrease)

        4
        Personal weapons
        (hands, fists, feet, etc.) 869 728 - 16.22%
        (decrease)

        5
        Blunt objects
        (clubs, hammers, etc.) 647 496 - 23.33%
        (decrease)
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #5
          Can you just imagine the mass hysteria over vehicles if MSM broadcasted each and every vehicular death in the US each day.
          Last edited by seanD; 11-26-2014, 09:28 PM.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            http://www.top5ofanything.com/index.php?h=cd8296da

            Murders 2007 compared to Murders 2011 and Percent Change

            1
            Firearms 10,129 8,583 - 15.26%
            (decrease)

            2
            Knives or cutting instruments 1,817 1,694 - 6.76%
            (decrease)

            3
            Other weapon or
            weapon not stated 1,005 853 - 15.12%
            (decrease)

            4
            Personal weapons
            (hands, fists, feet, etc.) 869 728 - 16.22%
            (decrease)

            5
            Blunt objects
            (clubs, hammers, etc.) 647 496 - 23.33%
            (decrease)
            That's all good news and I'm glad.

            The accidental shooting theme is interesting too. I imagine it's harder to kill someone accidentally with a hammer than it is with a gun.

            Comment


            • #7
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since youve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                Can you just imagine the mass hysteria over vehicles if MSM broadcasted each and every vehicular death in the US each day.
                The ones that are most avoidable (i.e. where the driver is drunk) do tend to garner more press.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  Can you just imagine the mass hysteria over vehicles if MSM broadcasted each and every vehicular death in the US each day.
                  Quite true. But cars are designed to be used for lots of things and killing people is a tragic unintended consequence. I'm not sure you can say the same about handguns.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Given how many guns there are in the US (~300 million, if cursory Googling is at all accurate), is it safe to say that perhaps the gun problem isn't as severe as it's often made out to be?

                    For example, I live in Montana. I struggle to think of anyone that I know in this state who does not own a gun. It's Montana...everyone owns a gun, and most more than one. Even in light of that, gun violence is not what most people would call a serious problem here.

                    Yes, gun violence is a bad thing (like any kind of violence). But it doesn't seem as pervasive an issue as a lot of people seem to think it is.
                    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                      Ok, this thread is open to all, I'd just ask we keep the conversation about ideas and not 'you're an idiot'.

                      Article

                      Oklahoma woman shot dead by her 3 year old son after he finds loaded gun under couch. She was in the army BTW.

                      I'm just using this article as a focus for the wider issue of gun death that the US has.

                      Does the US have an issue with gun death (especially when compared to other countries)?

                      Is there a way forward? What can we do, both as individuals and as communities?

                      Is there a particularly Christian response to this issue? What should it be?


                      You know I'm a demon filled progressive pinko communist with an iPad. You can probably guess where at least some of my thoughts lie, so I will not even post them. I'm interested in how you might respond.
                      That's just plain poor gun safety, for which she has paid the ultimate price for.

                      I don't own own any guns (although I am aware that some states in Aus consider my two paintball markers to be guns.) But I have a number of friends who do (most don't own any pistols as you can only get a pistol licence if your part of a club....a friend and his 16 year old daughter are some of the best pistol shooters in NZ). They are for hunting purposes, most of them have more than one rifle or shotgun. My parent's woned pistols in South Africa, my mom has been placed in the position of having to choose whether or not to shoot someone. MY eldest brother has shot at someone before (an intruder) and my father-in-law has been in a shoot out before on the farm.

                      That being said, I do think that, from the news we see America does have a bit of a gun death issue. And I don't think it's just because of the number of guns (IIRC correctly Switzerland has a higher guns per capita ownership as does Israel). I think the problem stems from the number of people with access to guns who don't respect them enough.
                      You have a gun, if it is not in use, or on your person, it should never be in a place where a kid can get to it.
                      A kid should be allowed no where near a gun until he/she is old enough to know how to handle one and how to treat it with respect.
                      Guns (real ones) should never be allowed to be treated as a toy by kids (thinking of that young boy who shot his baby sister while playing with his gun)
                      There do need to be more background checks on people buying guns (states should share information so you can make sure that someone with issues can't just go out and buy a gun)

                      Always, always always treat a gun as if it's loaded (my father-in-law, who is a qualified gun-smith, shot himself in the finger cleaning a gun he though he had removed the ammo from)
                      "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                      -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                      Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                      1 Corinthians 16:13

                      "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                      -Ben Witherington III

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                        Quite true. But cars are designed to be used for lots of things and killing people is a tragic unintended consequence. I'm not sure you can say the same about handguns.
                        The mass hysterics of people against vehicles wouldn't see it that way though. The point I was making is that any facts you pout fourth as an argument against guns can be debunked by counter facts. Your argument is subjective and based on pure emotion (I say that because I've heard the arguments exhaustively from both sides).
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                          Given how many guns there are in the US (~300 million, if cursory Googling is at all accurate), is it safe to say that perhaps the gun problem isn't as severe as it's often made out to be?

                          For example, I live in Montana. I struggle to think of anyone that I know in this state who does not own a gun. It's Montana...everyone owns a gun, and most more than one. Even in light of that, gun violence is not what most people would call a serious problem here.

                          Yes, gun violence is a bad thing (like any kind of violence). But it doesn't seem as pervasive an issue as a lot of people seem to think it is.
                          I've never been to Montana but I would guess that with such wide ownership, there is more of a culture of gun safety (unlike, say, the OP)?
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            I've never been to Montana but I would guess that with such wide ownership, there is more of a culture of gun safety (unlike, say, the OP)?
                            I would say so, from my limited experience. I can't think of anyone who has exhibited a lack of appropriate safety measures.
                            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              People kill people. Not inanimate objects. Not cars, guns, knives, poison . . .
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth Im after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment

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