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Ferguson shooting indictment announcement coming at 9PM EST

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  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post

    That last part is true, but according to Wilson's testimony, Brown had initially started to run away, and Wilson had then gotten out of the car and chased after him. I believe he could've quickly grabbed the taser and spray before leaving the car to chase Brown. After all, the problem of being in close quarters and within a confined space doesn't apply outside on the run.
    Wilson did not carry a taser, and pepper spray has a very limited distance of use.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    Tase him, perhaps. Use pepper spray. Things like that.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Shooting to wound is almost never a viable option; it's a more difficult shot, and is far from guaranteed to stop the target. It's amazing what adrenaline can do - I know of a guy who ran for 4 blocks with a bullet hole in his ankle.
    It seems that we've covered the infeasibility of shooting to wound (outside scripted movies and TV shows) ad nauseam. I cannot believe that anyone still thinks that is a viable option.

    Leave a comment:


  • fm93
    replied
    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    How do you know? Do you think that shooting to wound him was a viable option?
    I'm not sure how viable the option is (I understand that it may be difficult to precisely pull off), but as I said, there appear to have been alternatives to shooting him at all.


    Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
    'shouldn't have to' does not equal 'never does'.

    I'll defer to those who have actual experience in these kinds of things (Do you?), but AFAIK it's a lot easier to come up with 'reasonable options' from the sidelines, in your armchair, that it is when you're the one facing down an angry 250 pound guy. Officer Wilson already had his gun drawn, had fired shots, and (as far as we know) the threat of possibly being shot (again?) wasn't enough to deter Michael Brown from attacking again. Are you seriously suggesting that he should have holstered the gun, found his taser (if he had one) and tried that, all while Brown was rushing at him? Given the initial confrontation occurred while Wilson was still in his patrol car, pepper spray (not very suitable for use in very close quarters, and confined spaces) and a taser aren't very viable options.
    That last part is true, but according to Wilson's testimony, Brown had initially started to run away, and Wilson had then gotten out of the car and chased after him. I believe he could've quickly grabbed the taser and spray before leaving the car to chase Brown. After all, the problem of being in close quarters and within a confined space doesn't apply outside on the run.

    Frankly I have very little to no sympathy for some who gets hurt while resisting arrest just after having actually committed a crime. I don't know why he charged a cop with a drawn gun who had already fired at him, but it was a really dumb thing to do. Charging at anyone who has a gun drawn on you is asking to get shot.
    I agree that that would be dumb, except that to me, it's so extraordinary that I have difficulty believing that it happened precisely that way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zymologist
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Shooting to wound is almost never a viable option; it's a more difficult shot, and is far from guaranteed to stop the target. It's amazing what adrenaline can do - I know of a guy who ran for 4 blocks with a bullet hole in his ankle.
    Oh, I agree. I was wondering if that's what he was arguing.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    How do you know? Do you think that shooting to wound him was a viable option?
    Shooting to wound is almost never a viable option; it's a more difficult shot, and is far from guaranteed to stop the target. It's amazing what adrenaline can do - I know of a guy who ran for 4 blocks with a bullet hole in his ankle.

    Leave a comment:


  • MaxVel
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    Tase him, perhaps. Use pepper spray. Things like that.


    Defending one's self from attack shouldn't have to result in killing the attacker.
    'shouldn't have to' does not equal 'never does'.

    I'll defer to those who have actual experience in these kinds of things (Do you?), but AFAIK it's a lot easier to come up with 'reasonable options' from the sidelines, in your armchair, that it is when you're the one facing down an angry 250 pound guy. Officer Wilson already had his gun drawn, had fired shots, and (as far as we know) the threat of possibly being shot (again?) wasn't enough to deter Michael Brown from attacking again. Are you seriously suggesting that he should have holstered the gun, found his taser (if he had one) and tried that, all while Brown was rushing at him? Given the initial confrontation occurred while Wilson was still in his patrol car, pepper spray (not very suitable for use in very close quarters, and confined spaces) and a taser aren't very viable options.


    Frankly I have very little to no sympathy for some who gets hurt while resisting arrest just after having actually committed a crime. I don't know why he charged a cop with a drawn gun who had already fired at him, but it was a really dumb thing to do. Charging at anyone who has a gun drawn on you is asking to get shot.

    Oh, and 'shooting to wound' is what happens in movies. You know, fiction. Real life combat you're doing well to hit the target at all with a pistol.


    ETA: Michael Brown's very poor choices have not only ended his own life, but pretty much screwed up Officer Wilson's, his wife and their immediate family's as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zymologist
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    Tase him, perhaps. Use pepper spray. Things like that.


    Defending one's self from attack shouldn't have to result in killing the attacker.
    How do you know? Do you think that shooting to wound him was a viable option?

    Leave a comment:


  • fm93
    replied
    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    You've said things like this a number of times. What would you have had Wilson do?
    Tase him, perhaps. Use pepper spray. Things like that.

    You appear to believe that it is wrong to defend oneself from attack.
    Defending one's self from attack shouldn't have to result in killing the attacker.

    Leave a comment:


  • fm93
    replied
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    I have trouble with the concept that any rational person, let alone a white policeman in a black neighborhood, would take the chance of outright murdering a citizen in broad daylight, in the middle of the street, in a crowded apt complex, in front of eye witnesses, knowing he would have to stick around afterward (not run and try to get away) and hope to get away with it... Simply doesn't make sense...unless it happened more or less like he said it did. Which was at least corroborated by several witness and (at the very least partially) by the autopsy evidence.
    And I have trouble with the concept that any rational person, let alone an African-American student who'd already started to flee from an armed policeman, would take the chance of outright murdering the officer in broad daylight, in the middle of the street, in a crowded apt complex, in front of eye witnesses, knowing he would have to run into an onslaught of bullets after already having been shot (not run and try to get away) and hope to survive and get to him... Simply doesn't make sense.

    Besides, even if it did happen that way, you missed my ultimate point, which was questioning what exactly constitutes murder.


    Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
    Murder is premeditated unlawful killing* - this killing wasn't premeditated; and more relevantly, has just been declared 'not unlawful' (possible future civil suits etc etc aside). Therefore it wasn't murder.

    A tragedy, a waste, an act of folly - yes to all of those. But not murder.




    * most definitions seem to include some aspect of unlawfulness.
    Thank you. If murder necessarily involves premeditation, then I agree that this technically wasn't murder per se. It's the "unlawful" part, then, that I wish to examine further.
    Last edited by fm93; 11-25-2014, 09:01 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • seanD
    replied
    I'm surprised no one jumped on this, being that it's 2 weeks old. Only reason I'm bothering to post this is the absurdity of it. You just can't make this stuff up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Grand Jury evidence released:

    http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/fergu.../evidence.html

    NYT (same thing, alternate host in case the first goes down)
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rown-case.html
    At least those waiting took it well:

    Smoke billowed from burned-out buildings and sidewalks were strewn with broken glass Tuesday after Ferguson erupted over a grand jury's decision not to indict a white police officer in the killing of unarmed black 18-year-old Michael Brown.

    Firefighters were dousing the blackened remains of some Ferguson businesses and at least one was still ablaze Tuesday morning. Some stores that escaped fire had their display windows smashed, but the St. Louis suburb's streets were mostly clear.

    Monday night's protests were far more destructive than any of those that followed Brown's Aug. 9 death, with more than a dozen businesses badly damaged or destroyed. Authorities reported hearing hundreds of gunshots, which for a time prevented fire crews from fighting the flames.

    There were 61 arrests in Ferguson overnight, many for burglary and trespassing, St. Louis County Police spokesman Brian Schellman said. There were 21 arrests in St. Louis, where protesters broke some store windows along South Grand Avenue, St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay said.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Grand Jury evidence released:

    http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/fergu.../evidence.html

    NYT (same thing, alternate host in case the first goes down)
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rown-case.html

    Roughly I wanna say 8:40, I mean not 8:40, 11:40-11:40 is when that-when I first seen these two guys. And, my initial thought was, "wow, that's a big dude." Because Mr. Brown, Mike Brown, my initial thought was he's a big guy. He's tall and like stocky build and that's it. He-he, they both walked passed me. I took my tools, went into I came back outside to get some more stuff and I looked down the street and I seen the police car at a slant and I seen Mr. Brown in the window of the police car looked ...it appeared as they were wrestling through the window and one gunshot had let off. And, Mr. Brown took off running and my first thought was like "oh my gosh" did I actually just witness a police officer being murdered because it took a while for the police officer to get out of the car and pursue the-the suspect. And, I wanna say maybe six seconds, but it seemed like it was forever after the-the-the first gunshot. So, the police officer exited the vehicle with his weapon drawn pursuing Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown was quite a distance and he stopped and when he stopped, he didn't get down on the ground or anything. He turned around and he did some type of movement. I never seen him put his hands up or anything. I can't recall the movement that he did. I'm not sure if he pulled his pants up or-or whatever he did but I seen some type of movement and he started charging towards the police officer. The police officer then returned fire, well, not returned fire, open fire on Mr. Brown. Um, if I had to guess the shots and the-the distance between him and, a, Mr. Brown, it would have to be five to ten yards and the shots that were fired was four, five to six shots fired and Mr.
    Brown was still standing up. Um, and my thoughts was while he's missing this guy this close, is he-is he hitting him or because Mr. Brown there was no reaction from him to show that he was been hit. Um, after that, Mr. Brown then paused. He-he-he stopped running and when he stopped running the police officer stopped firing. And, then Mr. Brown continued, started again to charge towards him and after that the police officer returned fire and um well not returned, I'm using wrong ...a started to fire once more at him. Um, if I had to guess the rounds that were fired then it would be four to five more shots and after that Mr. Brown collapsed and fell to the ground.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zymologist
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    Interesting that eyewitness testimony is considered so valuable now, after all that other eyewitness testimony was dismissed. But anyhow, I asked the question more for an answer on what constitutes murder. Believing that Wilson's version of events is true and believing that the killing was wrong aren't mutually exclusive.
    You've said things like this a number of times. What would you have had Wilson do? You appear to believe that it is wrong to defend oneself from attack.

    Leave a comment:

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