Ferguson shooting indictment announcement coming at 9PM EST

[seanD]

What leads you to believe this?

The 7 eyewitnesses (black eyewitnesses) that back Wilson's version?

[fm93]

The 7 eyewitnesses (black eyewitnesses) that back Wilson's version?

Interesting that eyewitness testimony is considered so valuable now, after all that other eyewitness testimony was dismissed. But anyhow, I asked the question more for an answer on what constitutes murder. Believing that Wilson's version of events is true and believing that the killing was wrong aren't mutually exclusive.

[seanD]

Interesting that eyewitness testimony is considered so valuable now, after all that other eyewitness testimony was dismissed. But anyhow, I asked the question more for an answer on what constitutes murder. Believing that Wilson's version of events is true and believing that the killing was wrong aren't mutually exclusive.

Which group of eyewitnesses would you logically consider more reliable (keep in mind that one of the eyewitnesses claiming Brown surrendered was his accomplice in the liquor store robbery)?

[Littlejoe]

Interesting that eyewitness testimony is considered so valuable now, after all that other eyewitness testimony was dismissed. But anyhow, I asked the question more for an answer on what constitutes murder. Believing that Wilson's version of events is true and believing that the killing was wrong aren't mutually exclusive.

I have trouble with the concept that any rational person, let alone a white policeman in a black neighborhood, would take the chance of outright murdering a citizen in broad daylight, in the middle of the street, in a crowded apt complex, in front of eye witnesses, knowing he would have to stick around afterward (not run and try to get away) and hope to get away with it... Simply doesn't make sense...unless it happened more or less like he said it did. Which was at least corroborated by several witness and (at the very least partially) by the autopsy evidence.

[Epoetker]

But ... there is no hell. I'll take my good intentions wherever I find them. There are always too few.

I've always been more of a 'know them by their fruits' type of guy myself. Blame the Christian upbringing.

[MaxVel]

What leads you to believe this?

Murder is premeditated unlawful killing* - this killing wasn't premeditated; and more relevantly, has just been declared 'not unlawful' (possible future civil suits etc etc aside). Therefore it wasn't murder.

A tragedy, a waste, an act of folly - yes to all of those. But not murder.




* most definitions seem to include some aspect of unlawfulness.

[Darth Executor]

Interesting that eyewitness testimony is considered so valuable now, after all that other eyewitness testimony was dismissed. But anyhow, I asked the question more for an answer on what constitutes murder. Believing that Wilson's version of events is true and believing that the killing was wrong aren't mutually exclusive.

Of course it's valuable. Black people testifying against a black martyr? Why would they, unless they genuinely believe it and care more about justice than they do about sticking it to whitie.

[Darth Executor]

[Zymologist]

Interesting that eyewitness testimony is considered so valuable now, after all that other eyewitness testimony was dismissed. But anyhow, I asked the question more for an answer on what constitutes murder. Believing that Wilson's version of events is true and believing that the killing was wrong aren't mutually exclusive.

You've said things like this a number of times. What would you have had Wilson do? You appear to believe that it is wrong to defend oneself from attack.

[Darth Executor]

Grand Jury evidence released:

http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/fergu.../evidence.html

NYT (same thing, alternate host in case the first goes down)
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rown-case.html

Roughly I wanna say 8:40, I mean not 8:40, 11:40-11:40 is when that-when I first seen these two guys. And, my initial thought was, "wow, that's a big dude." Because Mr. Brown, Mike Brown, my initial thought was he's a big guy. He's tall and like stocky build and that's it. He-he, they both walked passed me. I took my tools, went into I came back outside to get some more stuff and I looked down the street and I seen the police car at a slant and I seen Mr. Brown in the window of the police car looked ...it appeared as they were wrestling through the window and one gunshot had let off. And, Mr. Brown took off running and my first thought was like "oh my gosh" did I actually just witness a police officer being murdered because it took a while for the police officer to get out of the car and pursue the-the suspect. And, I wanna say maybe six seconds, but it seemed like it was forever after the-the-the first gunshot. So, the police officer exited the vehicle with his weapon drawn pursuing Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown was quite a distance and he stopped and when he stopped, he didn't get down on the ground or anything. He turned around and he did some type of movement. I never seen him put his hands up or anything. I can't recall the movement that he did. I'm not sure if he pulled his pants up or-or whatever he did but I seen some type of movement and he started charging towards the police officer. The police officer then returned fire, well, not returned fire, open fire on Mr. Brown. Um, if I had to guess the shots and the-the distance between him and, a, Mr. Brown, it would have to be five to ten yards and the shots that were fired was four, five to six shots fired and Mr.
Brown was still standing up. Um, and my thoughts was while he's missing this guy this close, is he-is he hitting him or because Mr. Brown there was no reaction from him to show that he was been hit. Um, after that, Mr. Brown then paused. He-he-he stopped running and when he stopped running the police officer stopped firing. And, then Mr. Brown continued, started again to charge towards him and after that the police officer returned fire and um well not returned, I'm using wrong ...a started to fire once more at him. Um, if I had to guess the rounds that were fired then it would be four to five more shots and after that Mr. Brown collapsed and fell to the ground.

[One Bad Pig]

Grand Jury evidence released:

http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/fergu.../evidence.html

NYT (same thing, alternate host in case the first goes down)
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rown-case.html

At least those waiting took it well:

Smoke billowed from burned-out buildings and sidewalks were strewn with broken glass Tuesday after Ferguson erupted over a grand jury's decision not to indict a white police officer in the killing of unarmed black 18-year-old Michael Brown.

Firefighters were dousing the blackened remains of some Ferguson businesses and at least one was still ablaze Tuesday morning. Some stores that escaped fire had their display windows smashed, but the St. Louis suburb's streets were mostly clear.

Monday night's protests were far more destructive than any of those that followed Brown's Aug. 9 death, with more than a dozen businesses badly damaged or destroyed. Authorities reported hearing hundreds of gunshots, which for a time prevented fire crews from fighting the flames.

There were 61 arrests in Ferguson overnight, many for burglary and trespassing, St. Louis County Police spokesman Brian Schellman said. There were 21 arrests in St. Louis, where protesters broke some store windows along South Grand Avenue, St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay said.

[Darth Executor]

[seanD]

I'm surprised no one jumped on this, being that it's 2 weeks old. Only reason I'm bothering to post this is the absurdity of it. You just can't make this stuff up.

[fm93]

I have trouble with the concept that any rational person, let alone a white policeman in a black neighborhood, would take the chance of outright murdering a citizen in broad daylight, in the middle of the street, in a crowded apt complex, in front of eye witnesses, knowing he would have to stick around afterward (not run and try to get away) and hope to get away with it... Simply doesn't make sense...unless it happened more or less like he said it did. Which was at least corroborated by several witness and (at the very least partially) by the autopsy evidence.

And I have trouble with the concept that any rational person, let alone an African-American student who'd already started to flee from an armed policeman, would take the chance of outright murdering the officer in broad daylight, in the middle of the street, in a crowded apt complex, in front of eye witnesses, knowing he would have to run into an onslaught of bullets after already having been shot (not run and try to get away) and hope to survive and get to him... Simply doesn't make sense.

Besides, even if it did happen that way, you missed my ultimate point, which was questioning what exactly constitutes murder.

Murder is premeditated unlawful killing* - this killing wasn't premeditated; and more relevantly, has just been declared 'not unlawful' (possible future civil suits etc etc aside). Therefore it wasn't murder.

A tragedy, a waste, an act of folly - yes to all of those. But not murder.




* most definitions seem to include some aspect of unlawfulness.

Thank you. If murder necessarily involves premeditation, then I agree that this technically wasn't murder per se. It's the "unlawful" part, then, that I wish to examine further.

[fm93]

You've said things like this a number of times. What would you have had Wilson do?

Tase him, perhaps. Use pepper spray. Things like that.

You appear to believe that it is wrong to defend oneself from attack.

Defending one's self from attack shouldn't have to result in killing the attacker.