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  • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
    You seem to have this idea that Wilson had plenty of time to think through possible options and make other choices. I submit that he had very little time at all, even if he wasn't already in a stress and adrenaline-filled combat situation.
    But police officers have to be able to think quickly in pressure-filled situations. It's tough, but if they're going to take up defending society as a career, they have to be held to higher standards than regular civilians.

    Some bad decisions are fatal. Attacking a policeman is a bad decision that can be fatal. You want Brown to do outright dumb, illegal and dangerous things, and not face the full consequences.
    No. I certainly don't want Brown to do dumb, illegal and dangerous things. I'm just saying that death shouldn't be the consequences of such things, because grace and redemption should be available to everyone, and to die at such a young age robs people of their chances to find and experience them.

    Now you're after-the-fact armchair judging Wilson's responses to Brown's actions, as if Brown should be able to do whatever he likes, and never face any possibility of dying as a result. You're enabling the kind of irrational thought processes that lead to people making dumb choices that sometimes get them killed. Congratulations - you're part of the reason people like Brown die.
    This honestly angers me. If Brown really did those things that he's accused of, I wholeheartedly support throwing him in prison for life after being found guilty in a trial, having him face the shame of his family and friends withdrawing their personal support and trust, etc. But just because I believe that death shouldn't be a consequence of it, I'm ENABLING him to commit violent crimes and get killed?

    There are plenty of people who have died - in all sorts of circumstances - because of poor choices they made. That's reality.
    True. Driving at speeds of over 100mph and not driving a seatbelt is a poor choice that can result in death, for instance. But that's more of an inherent, natural consequence of it, whereas a person shooting you to death is not an inherent, natural consequence of anything. The laws of physics inevitably mean that a collision while traveling at that speed will launch you forward into the windshield or steering wheel with an inevitable amount of force that the human body by nature generally can't withstand. There is no natural law of physics requiring someone with a gun to shoot you if you charge at him.

    Besides, even if the onus is on the driver to not make poor choices like not wearing a seatbelt, it seems absurd to say that if he dies because of this, trying to figure out what could've been done to prevent him from dying is enabling him to make such choices and get killed. Unless, of course, you have a complaint with the inventors of airbags.

    Wilson did not execute Brown, or kill him for no reason at all. Brown died because of his own choices. He chose to rob that store, chose to walk in the street, chose not to obey the officer's legitimate instructions, chose to try and disarm Wilson inside his patrol car, chose to resist arrest and charge at a police officer with a drawn gun.

    The only person here who denied Brown an opportunity to live a full life is Brown himself. Your implication otherwise is a denial of the known facts, the grand jury finding, and enablement of Brown's criminal and reckless behaviour.
    Brown was one of the parties involved in being denied the opportunity to live a full life. I'm not denying this; just pointing out that it's not accurate to say that he was the ONLY person who denied him the opportunity. After all, the gun didn't fire itself.

    So money solves every problem? A million dollars (source??)
    Oops, that should've said "a half-million."
    http://www.ibtimes.com/officer-darre...stions-1676430

    is plenty of compensation for having to give up your chosen career, relocate, sell your house (probably at a loss), get a new identity, relocate your family, live the rest of your life looking over your shoulder
    Judging by the amount of money raised, he has a large number of supporters and shouldn't have much trouble finding a town that supports him.

    because a certain group of people won't abide by the laws of their society, and can't accept the consequences of their own actions
    What "certain group of people" won't abide by the laws of their society and can't accept the consequences of their own actions?

    and their enablers (that'd be you, square_peg) encourage them to blame everyone but themselves.
    This is borderline libelous. I am absolutely not enabling anything or encouraging anyone to blame everyone but themselves (whatever and whoever that even refers to). Anyone who assaults and attempts murder should absolutely receive strict and long punishments; it is absolutely inexcusable. It's just that friggin' death shouldn't have to be one of them unless there is literally no other option...and it isn't clear that that was the case. Stop with this infuriating and nonsensical accusation that wanting people to have chances to repent and reform is somehow enabling or encouraging criminal behavior.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      Actually, I think it's highlighted the fact that a lot of people simply can't accept the reasoning for why a gun can be justified. Again, I'm bewildered as to why the professional opinions of police officers, you know, guys who actually know what they're talking about, don't count for anything in all this.
      A gun is justified when dealing with people who are armed. When someone is unarmed, I'll go by the professional opinions of police officers in the UK, 82% of whom said in a survey in 2006 that they prefer not to be armed.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
        A gun is justified when dealing with people who are armed. When someone is unarmed, I'll go by the professional opinions of police officers in the UK, 82% of whom said in a survey in 2006 that they prefer not to be armed.
        how about cop cars with 2 cops and one referee (one armed cop and one unarmed cop)

        the referee can whistle a time out to frisk the suspect for weapons, in order to decide whether the armed cop needs to deal with the suspect or if the unarmed cop is needed.
        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

        Comment


        • Originally posted by square_peg View Post
          But police officers have to be able to think quickly in pressure-filled situations. It's tough, but if they're going to take up defending society as a career, they have to be held to higher standards than regular civilians.

          And they are held to higher standards... just not unrealistic ones. By my count three posters with actual experience in police/law enforcement (Adrift, myth, Cow Poke) have told you that you're being unrealistic, the link I provided also confirms that.

          Originally posted by square_peg
          No. I certainly don't want Brown to do dumb, illegal and dangerous things. I'm just saying that death shouldn't be the consequences of such things, because grace and redemption should be available to everyone, and to die at such a young age robs people of their chances to find and experience them.
          Then you don't want to live in the real world, huh? Doing dangerous things by definition carries the risk that you'll get hurt. Sometimes that hurt can be fatal.


          Originally posted by square_peg
          This honestly angers me. If Brown really did those things that he's accused of, I wholeheartedly support throwing him in prison for life after being found guilty in a trial, having him face the shame of his family and friends withdrawing their personal support and trust, etc. But just because I believe that death shouldn't be a consequence of it, I'm ENABLING him to commit violent crimes and get killed?
          Yes, because you're encouraging people to think that certain actions shouldn't have certain consequences. You're encouraging him to make decisions based on a worldview that is empirically false. Trying to wrestle a gun off a policeman is empirically dangerous. Breaking the law, then violently resisting a law enforcement officer, to the point where he had a reasonable expectation that you are a danger to him and others, is dangerous behaviour, and should be so. We have law enforcement officers (in part) to stop big, mean and unscrupulous people from victimising those less violent than themselves. Some of those violent people aren't deterred even by the potential that they might get shot and killed by a policeman. They still carry out crimes, assault policemen, resist arrest and so on.

          What on earth do you think society would be like if we told those people: "Relax, we understand how much it would limit your potential to make you face the possible risk of death in the course of your criminal behaviours. So, from now on, no policeman will be allowed to shoot you or even shoot at you."?



          Originally posted by square_peg
          True. Driving at speeds of over 100mph and not driving a seatbelt is a poor choice that can result in death, for instance. But that's more of an inherent, natural consequence of it, whereas a person shooting you to death is not an inherent, natural consequence of anything. The laws of physics inevitably mean that a collision while traveling at that speed will launch you forward into the windshield or steering wheel with an inevitable amount of force that the human body by nature generally can't withstand. There is no natural law of physics requiring someone with a gun to shoot you if you charge at him.

          There is, however, plenty of legal precedent (in America, at least) that a police officer will use lethal force to stop you if you assault him, try to steal his weapon, and charge at him when he has his gun drawn on you.


          Originally posted by square_peg
          Besides, even if the onus is on the driver to not make poor choices like not wearing a seatbelt, it seems absurd to say that if he dies because of this, trying to figure out what could've been done to prevent him from dying is enabling him to make such choices and get killed. Unless, of course, you have a complaint with the inventors of airbags.


          Brown was one of the parties involved in being denied the opportunity to live a full life. I'm not denying this; just pointing out that it's not accurate to say that he was the ONLY person who denied him the opportunity. After all, the gun didn't fire itself.
          I think it was Cow Poke who pointed out that the policeman's decision-making process is reactive, based on what the offender does. Wilson did not shoot Brown down on some random drive-by - he reacted; legally to what Brown chose to do.

          You apparently know better than experienced law enforcement personnel and a grand jury.


          Originally posted by sqaure_peg
          Oops, that should've said "a half-million."
          http://www.ibtimes.com/officer-darre...stions-1676430


          Judging by the amount of money raised, he has a large number of supporters and shouldn't have much trouble finding a town that supports him.


          What "certain group of people" won't abide by the laws of their society and can't accept the consequences of their own actions?

          A sizeable segment of the African American population, for a start. The rioters in Ferguson who think burning down businesses is a reasonable response to Brown being an idiot and getting himself killed.



          Originally posted by square_peg
          This is borderline libelous. I am absolutely not enabling anything or encouraging anyone to blame everyone but themselves (whatever and whoever that even refers to). Anyone who assaults and attempts murder should absolutely receive strict and long punishments; it is absolutely inexcusable. It's just that friggin' death shouldn't have to be one of them unless there is literally no other option...and it isn't clear that that was the case. Stop with this infuriating and nonsensical accusation that wanting people to have chances to repent and reform is somehow enabling or encouraging criminal behavior.

          I want people to have chances like that - Brown had such a chance when the initial encounter in the car was over - but the realities of present-day America are that certain actions are quite likely to get you killed. Would that it were not so, but as I have already said that would involve addressing a whole host of 'root causes'.

          What I see you doing is 'enabling' in the sense that you're looking for fault only on one side - why aren't you questioning the choices Brown made, or his parents failure to bring him up well, or his community's apparent failure to give him positive role models, aspirations and dreams that would have prevented him from throwing his life away foolishly, or expressing any sympathy at all for the man who risked injury and possibly death trying to get Brown to obey the law, and now faces vilification, hatred and a desire for 'revenge' from who knows how many, simply for serving the community?

          You're enabling because your response seems to be pretty much one-sided, as if Brown somehow was a victim rather than a violent, bullying, and foolish criminal. The message is: "If you're young and black, you don't deserve to face the real-world consequences of your choices. Society owes you." That enables a fantasy-based rather than a reality-based decision making process that has a role in the poor choices people like Brown make. Deal with it.
          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
            how about cop cars with 2 cops and one referee (one armed cop and one unarmed cop)

            the referee can whistle a time out to frisk the suspect for weapons, in order to decide whether the armed cop needs to deal with the suspect or if the unarmed cop is needed.
            You've convinced me. Police should not assess the situation and react as appropriate. Instead, police should always treat everyone as if they are a suicide bomber.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
              You've convinced me. Police should not assess the situation and react as appropriate. Instead, police should always treat everyone as if they are a suicide bomber.
              so you dont approve of our methods, ...yeah? well you ain't from Chicago
              To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                A gun is justified when dealing with people who are armed. When someone is unarmed, I'll go by the professional opinions of police officers in the UK, 82% of whom said in a survey in 2006 that they prefer not to be armed.
                So you believe that a gun can never be justified when a person is unarmed? Do you believe that in order to stop a criminal the cop must disarm himself so as to create a "fair fight?"

                Being unarmed doesn't make somebody not a threat. Brown was plenty big and strong enough to beat Wilson to death.
                Last edited by Zymologist; 12-03-2014, 09:25 AM.
                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                  So you believe that a gun can never be justified when a person is unarmed? Do you believe that in order to stop a criminal the victim must disarm himself so as to create a "fair fight?"

                  Being unarmed doesn't make somebody not a threat. Brown was plenty big and strong enough to beat Wilson to death.
                  My nephew works as a guard in a county jail. He is about the size of Brown. Whenever they get unruly prisoners, they just send him in to control the prisoner, and he is unarmed when he does so. He could easily snap most normal size guys in two.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                    So you believe that a gun can never be justified when a person is unarmed? Do you believe that in order to stop a criminal the cop must disarm himself so as to create a "fair fight?"

                    Being unarmed doesn't make somebody not a threat. Brown was plenty big and strong enough to beat Wilson to death.
                    I believe a gun can never be justified when a person is unarmed, yes. I believe police should use appropriate tools and methods at appropriate times. If police in the UK can deal with unarmed people without guns, I don't see why police in the US can't. I don't think you're giving our police enough credit.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                      I believe a gun can never be justified when a person is unarmed, yes. I believe police should use appropriate tools and methods at appropriate times. If police in the UK can deal with unarmed people without guns, I don't see why police in the US can't. I don't think you're giving our police enough credit.
                      Would you then, for example, oppose a woman using a gun to stop a rapist, who is much larger and stronger than she is?

                      This reasoning is just bizarre to me. Unarmed people can do a lot of damage.
                      I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                        Would you then, for example, oppose a woman using a gun to stop a rapist, who is much larger and stronger than she is?

                        This reasoning is just bizarre to me. Unarmed people can do a lot of damage.
                        The other available avenues seem sufficient to me.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                          The other available avenues seem sufficient to me.
                          What other available avenues?
                          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                            What other available avenues?
                            Every non-gun related way a person could avoid getting hurt in an unarmed confrontation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                              Every non-gun related way a person could avoid getting hurt in an unarmed confrontation.
                              Are you speaking from experience? This doesn't seem very helpful.
                              I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                                Are you speaking from experience? This doesn't seem very helpful.
                                Not from experience, no. Why aren't you finding my words helpful?

                                Comment

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