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Ferguson shooting indictment announcement coming at 9PM EST

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  • #46
    The guy from the video I posted earlier didn't go down easy either.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • #47
      If shooting to wound is so difficult, then what's the explanation for the numbers going around about how police shooting deaths in almost every Western country dwarfs those of the US/are close to nonexistent? (Genuine question here.)
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        If shooting to wound is so difficult, then what's the explanation for the numbers going around about how police shooting deaths in almost every Western country dwarfs those of the US/are close to nonexistent? (Genuine question here.)
        I dunno, we had a situation here in NZ where a chap had been threatening cops. Then there was an incident and we had an Armed Offenders Squad callout to deal with him (NZ cops do not typically carry firearms). The ratbag told the cops he had a gun, and supposedly went for it, so they shot him. When they went to help he told them he had a grenade so they backed off (he had neither). And he is now complaining about why did the cops have to shoot him (he's spending the rest of his life in a wheel chair)
        (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...-was-justified )
        "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
        -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

        Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
        1 Corinthians 16:13

        "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
        -Ben Witherington III

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          no. They only had a limited number of them and he was only in one training session where he got to try it out one time.
          So the fact that they had such a short limit and that he only had one training session before going out to do a job in which he might need to use a taser is a problem, isn't it?

          He already had his gun out from the first altercation in the car. He could not reach his pepper spray during that altercation since it was on the back of his belt on his left side and Brown was trying to grab his gun.
          Right...but then, according to Wilson's own testimony, Brown started running away. It takes barely a second to locate and secure the pepper spray before getting out of the car to chase after him.

          Why do you keep trying to make up excuses for Brown?
          I'm not. Although aspects of Wilson's testimony personally sound far-fetched to me, I'm going along with them for now, since, you know, Brown can't offer his side of the story. I'm just trying to figure out what could've been done to keep Brown from dying.

          He was a criminal and attacked a police officer and would have killed the cop if he had the chance. Instead he got shot and died. It had nothing to do with him being black, and everything to do with him being a thug. Wilson even said he just asked Brown to move out of the street. If he had done so, Wilson would have driven on and Brown would have not been shot and would have had a chance to get away with his robbery of the store. Instead he decided to confront the cop and attack him.
          Again, for now I'm accepting his testimony, although technically, he said that they were moving out of the street when he noticed the cigarillos. It was at that point that he drove back around and cut them off to confront them.

          That you keep refusing to accept any explanation and think that no matter what that Brown was the victim here instead of the perpetrator
          Once again, I am accepting the explanation for now. Additionally, I can believe that he was the perpetrator and a victim.

          This isn't a TV cop show where they can just whip out a can of mace or a taser to slow someone down. It was real life
          Yes, and in real life, mace and tasers exist precisely to slow down and stop someone who's threatening you.

          and Brown was threatening Wilson's life. Wilson was justified in using deadly force.
          That's what I'm disputing. Wilson has every right to self-defense, but I'm still hesitant to declare that he should've used deadly (rather than simply disabling) force.

          If we truly consider ourselves pro-life, then we have to consistently apply this great value and regard for life to everyone, not just to the unborn. The mere fact that a person's life was being threatened does not give that person the right to end the life of the one threatening him, unless literally every other option has been exhausted...and I'm not sure that was the case.
          Last edited by fm93; 11-26-2014, 05:27 PM.
          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
            Not to mention a moving target. The local advice around these parts of remote Alaska is that if you are going to carry a revolver for bear defense you need to be able to hit a moving target about the size of a bowling ball with at least 4 of 6 shots in under 6 seconds. It's been estimated that to gain that level of proficiency you need to put about 600 pounds of lead down rage in training. That's 600 pounds and not rounds.
            I don't think most departments are able, even if they are willing, to devote that much time and $$ to get their officers to that level.

            *edit* btw that 600 pounds of lead works out to about 12,300 rounds in a 44 mag
            Well, I didn't say that I believed shooting to wound was a viable option, so I have no clue why you guys keep discussing it.
            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Raphael View Post
              I dunno, we had a situation here in NZ where a chap had been threatening cops. Then there was an incident and we had an Armed Offenders Squad callout to deal with him (NZ cops do not typically carry firearms). The ratbag told the cops he had a gun, and supposedly went for it, so they shot him. When they went to help he told them he had a grenade so they backed off (he had neither). And he is now complaining about why did the cops have to shoot him (he's spending the rest of his life in a wheel chair)
              (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...-was-justified )
              Interesting, thanks.

              The statistics I see racing around social media leave me unconvinced that there are no alternatives to shooting to kill, though I wonder if part of the issue is that guns are so much more prevalent in the US, and that naturally there will be more threats.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                Right...but then, according to Wilson's own testimony, Brown started running away. It takes barely a second to locate and secure the pepper spray before getting out of the car to chase after him.


                I'm not. Although aspects of Wilson's testimony personally sound far-fetched to me, I'm going along with them for now, since, you know, Brown can't offer his side of the story. I'm just trying to figure out what could've been done to keep Brown from dying.


                Again, for now I'm accepting his testimony, although technically, he said that they were moving out of the street when he noticed the cigarillos. It was at that point that he drove back around and cut them off to confront them.


                Once again, I am accepting the explanation for now. Additionally, I can believe that he was the perpetrator and a victim.
                It does not look like you have read the actual transcripts by your responses. Can you quote the specific portions from the transcripts where Wilson says he was called about the cigarillo robbery, and what parts you find "far-fetched" compared to the investigator, ME, and the CSI testimony of the physical evidence.

                http://www.nola.com/news/ferguson/ferguson-all-1.pdf
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                  I'm just trying to figure out what could've been done to keep Brown from dying.
                  Someone could've taught him not to punch a cop and try to steal his gun. Maybe avoid robbing stores. Stuff like that.
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    Interesting, thanks.

                    The statistics I see racing around social media leave me unconvinced that there are no alternatives to shooting to kill, though I wonder if part of the issue is that guns are so much more prevalent in the US, and that naturally there will be more threats.
                    Do you believe that shooting to kill is never an appropriate alternative? In conversations like this one, it seems to me that the people arguing that the shooting is unjustified are unwilling to even consider the act as justified.

                    As for shooting to wound...have you ever fired a handgun? If you were going to shoot to wound (like in the case of Brown, who was a big, strong guy), where would you shoot him? How confident are you that you would hit him there, and that it would actually stop him? I have never heard someone in the police or military put forth shooting to wound as a viable option, but I have repeatedly heard them put it forth as an absolutely unreliable option. And these are the guys who are trained in the use of the guns.
                    Last edited by Zymologist; 11-26-2014, 06:10 PM.
                    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      It does not look like you have read the actual transcripts by your responses. Can you quote the specific portions from the transcripts where Wilson says he was called about the cigarillo robbery, and what parts you find "far-fetched" compared to the investigator, ME, and the CSI testimony of the physical evidence.

                      http://www.nola.com/news/ferguson/ferguson-all-1.pdf
                      He said that it wasn't technically his call--he simply happened to overhear it (the call was for other officers) while he was answering his own call about a sick infant. I read the transcript from this Scribd document on Time.com. On page 202:

                      page 202.jpg

                      As for what I find far-fetched? That fateful part where he says Brown was charging at him WHILE Wilson was firing his gun. I've heard of cases in which a person is so fueled with adrenaline that he doesn't even feel things like gunshots, but by Wilson's own testimony, Brown's body "jerked or flinched," which indicates to me that he did feel them, and that he would've felt the pain that they immediately bring. So despite feeling this pain, and despite having already been shot at point blank range while struggling with the officer near the car, Brown is still running towards him? Aggression is one thing, but this seems like suicidal aggression that I've only heard of being influenced by PCP, of which there's no evidence that Brown was on at the time.



                      (I do need to make a slight correction--earlier I said "[Wilson] said that they were moving out of the street when he noticed the cigarillos. It was at that point that he drove back around and cut them off to confront them." The second sentence is accurate, but I misread the first part. What he said was that Brown's friend had answered "We are almost to our destination," and that they then kep walking past the car. When I first read that I interpreted it to mean they were starting to move out of the street, but upon searching through the transcript to find the direct quote, I noticed that I'd missed a line on page 209 in which Wilson says "they never once stopped, never got on the sidewalk, they stayed in the middle of the road.")
                      Last edited by fm93; 11-26-2014, 06:26 PM.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                        Someone could've taught him not to punch a cop and try to steal his gun. Maybe avoid robbing stores. Stuff like that.
                        No doubt. But that doesn't mean he deserved to die after having done that. As for the second part, I'm fairly certain that with the exception of maybe you and Epoetker, not very many people believe committing robbery warrants death as a punishment.
                        Last edited by fm93; 11-26-2014, 06:36 PM.
                        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          No doubt. But that doesn't mean he deserved to die after having done that. As for the second part, I'm fairly certain that with the exception of maybe you and Epoetker, not very many people believe committing robbery warrants death as a punishment.
                          If an officer feels his life is in danger, he has the right to neutralize the threat as expeditiously as possible.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                            No doubt. But that doesn't mean he deserved to die after having done that. As for the second part, I'm fairly certain that with the exception of maybe you and Epoetker, not very many people believe committing robbery warrants death as a punishment.
                            You do have to wonder where he would have likely ended up anyway -- either shot by another black person or in prison (likely odds according to the statistics and the common patterns he was following, as well as his upbringing, influence of his parents, etc.).
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                              No doubt. But that doesn't mean he deserved to die after having done that. As for the second part, I'm fairly certain that with the exception of maybe you and Epoetker, not very many people believe committing robbery warrants death as a punishment.
                              Trying to steal a cop's gun and shoot him with it, then charging at him does though. The robbery is only a secondary issue, though one that likely pushed him into the confrontation. And if he was willing to go this far for some cigarettes then it could be argued that he probably would've killed someone sooner or later. Better him than his victims.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                                Do you believe that shooting to kill is never an appropriate alternative? In conversations like this one, it seems to me that the people arguing that the shooting is unjustified are unwilling to even consider the act as justified.

                                As for shooting to wound...have you ever fired a handgun? If you were going to shoot to wound (like in the case of Brown, who was a big, strong guy), where would you shoot him? How confident are you that you would hit him there, and that it would actually stop him? I have never heard someone in the police or military put forth shooting to wound as a viable option, but I have repeatedly heard them put it forth as an absolutely unreliable option. And these are the guys who are trained in the use of the guns.
                                No, I do think it is justifiable, certainly in self defense. But if the US happens to be the only country where this happens regularly, it does seem worth looking at if there are any alternative ways to looking at how things go about to try to reduce incidents like this. (I think one example of this is how people are relooking at whether small town police departments really need military tanks.)

                                To be painfully obvious and clear, I think that Darren Wilson was justified in shooting if he felt his life was in danger. (I also notice that he had never fired a weapon previously in his years on the job.)
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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