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  • #31
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    Tase him, perhaps. Use pepper spray. Things like that.


    Defending one's self from attack shouldn't have to result in killing the attacker.
    How do you know? Do you think that shooting to wound him was a viable option?
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by square_peg View Post
      Tase him, perhaps. Use pepper spray. Things like that.


      Defending one's self from attack shouldn't have to result in killing the attacker.
      'shouldn't have to' does not equal 'never does'.

      I'll defer to those who have actual experience in these kinds of things (Do you?), but AFAIK it's a lot easier to come up with 'reasonable options' from the sidelines, in your armchair, that it is when you're the one facing down an angry 250 pound guy. Officer Wilson already had his gun drawn, had fired shots, and (as far as we know) the threat of possibly being shot (again?) wasn't enough to deter Michael Brown from attacking again. Are you seriously suggesting that he should have holstered the gun, found his taser (if he had one) and tried that, all while Brown was rushing at him? Given the initial confrontation occurred while Wilson was still in his patrol car, pepper spray (not very suitable for use in very close quarters, and confined spaces) and a taser aren't very viable options.


      Frankly I have very little to no sympathy for some who gets hurt while resisting arrest just after having actually committed a crime. I don't know why he charged a cop with a drawn gun who had already fired at him, but it was a really dumb thing to do. Charging at anyone who has a gun drawn on you is asking to get shot.

      Oh, and 'shooting to wound' is what happens in movies. You know, fiction. Real life combat you're doing well to hit the target at all with a pistol.


      ETA: Michael Brown's very poor choices have not only ended his own life, but pretty much screwed up Officer Wilson's, his wife and their immediate family's as well.
      ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        How do you know? Do you think that shooting to wound him was a viable option?
        Shooting to wound is almost never a viable option; it's a more difficult shot, and is far from guaranteed to stop the target. It's amazing what adrenaline can do - I know of a guy who ran for 4 blocks with a bullet hole in his ankle.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #34
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Shooting to wound is almost never a viable option; it's a more difficult shot, and is far from guaranteed to stop the target. It's amazing what adrenaline can do - I know of a guy who ran for 4 blocks with a bullet hole in his ankle.
          Oh, I agree. I was wondering if that's what he was arguing.
          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
            How do you know? Do you think that shooting to wound him was a viable option?
            I'm not sure how viable the option is (I understand that it may be difficult to precisely pull off), but as I said, there appear to have been alternatives to shooting him at all.


            Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
            'shouldn't have to' does not equal 'never does'.

            I'll defer to those who have actual experience in these kinds of things (Do you?), but AFAIK it's a lot easier to come up with 'reasonable options' from the sidelines, in your armchair, that it is when you're the one facing down an angry 250 pound guy. Officer Wilson already had his gun drawn, had fired shots, and (as far as we know) the threat of possibly being shot (again?) wasn't enough to deter Michael Brown from attacking again. Are you seriously suggesting that he should have holstered the gun, found his taser (if he had one) and tried that, all while Brown was rushing at him? Given the initial confrontation occurred while Wilson was still in his patrol car, pepper spray (not very suitable for use in very close quarters, and confined spaces) and a taser aren't very viable options.
            That last part is true, but according to Wilson's testimony, Brown had initially started to run away, and Wilson had then gotten out of the car and chased after him. I believe he could've quickly grabbed the taser and spray before leaving the car to chase Brown. After all, the problem of being in close quarters and within a confined space doesn't apply outside on the run.

            Frankly I have very little to no sympathy for some who gets hurt while resisting arrest just after having actually committed a crime. I don't know why he charged a cop with a drawn gun who had already fired at him, but it was a really dumb thing to do. Charging at anyone who has a gun drawn on you is asking to get shot.
            I agree that that would be dumb, except that to me, it's so extraordinary that I have difficulty believing that it happened precisely that way.
            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Shooting to wound is almost never a viable option; it's a more difficult shot, and is far from guaranteed to stop the target. It's amazing what adrenaline can do - I know of a guy who ran for 4 blocks with a bullet hole in his ankle.
              It seems that we've covered the infeasibility of shooting to wound (outside scripted movies and TV shows) ad nauseam. I cannot believe that anyone still thinks that is a viable option.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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              • #37
                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                Tase him, perhaps. Use pepper spray. Things like that.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by square_peg View Post

                  That last part is true, but according to Wilson's testimony, Brown had initially started to run away, and Wilson had then gotten out of the car and chased after him. I believe he could've quickly grabbed the taser and spray before leaving the car to chase Brown. After all, the problem of being in close quarters and within a confined space doesn't apply outside on the run.
                  Wilson did not carry a taser, and pepper spray has a very limited distance of use.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                    I'm not sure how viable the option is (I understand that it may be difficult to precisely pull off), but as I said, there appear to have been alternatives to shooting him at all.
                    Yeah, he could have let Brown get his gun and shot him instead.


                    That last part is true, but according to Wilson's testimony, Brown had initially started to run away, and Wilson had then gotten out of the car and chased after him. I believe he could've quickly grabbed the taser and spray before leaving the car to chase Brown. After all, the problem of being in close quarters and within a confined space doesn't apply outside on the run.


                    I agree that that would be dumb, except that to me, it's so extraordinary that I have difficulty believing that it happened precisely that way.
                    Do you think tasers are that accurate?

                    And he already wounded Brown and shot off a couple of rounds that caused Brown to run off. Yet even though he was wounded, he turned around and came back to attack Wilson. Brown was the criminal here. He was a bully and a thief. He robbed the store, provoked a policeman, then attacked him in his own car and tried to get his gun, then ran off and turned around and came back at Wilson. If the first shots didn't stop him, then no warning shot, or wounding shot or even taser would have made a difference. The cop was defending his life. He had a right to shoot Brown and he did.

                    As to why? Brown was bigger than anyone else, and he was obviously used to using his size to get his way. He thought he could intimidate anyone, including a cop. Obviously he was wrong.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Wilson did not carry a taser, and pepper spray has a very limited distance of use.
                      And, unlike mace, pepper spray has been known to merely further infuriate the attacker and do nothing whatsoever to stop them.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Wilson did not carry a taser
                        Which is a problem, isn't it? Shouldn't he have been carrying one?

                        and pepper spray has a very limited distance of use.
                        This type of pepper spray supposedly has an effective range of twenty feet, while this supposedly can shoot up to eighteen feet. Wilson claims that the final shot was fired when Brown was about eight to ten feet away--if he had time to fire a gun, it seems to me that he also could've had time to whisk out and activate the spray.
                        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          Which is a problem, isn't it? Shouldn't he have been carrying one?
                          no. They only had a limited number of them and he was only in one training session where he got to try it out one time.

                          This type of pepper spray supposedly has an effective range of twenty feet, while this supposedly can shoot up to eighteen feet. Wilson claims that the final shot was fired when Brown was about eight to ten feet away--if he had time to fire a gun, it seems to me that he also could've had time to whisk out and activate the spray.
                          He already had his gun out from the first altercation in the car. He could not reach his pepper spray during that altercation since it was on the back of his belt on his left side and Brown was trying to grab his gun.

                          Why do you keep trying to make up excuses for Brown? He was a criminal and attacked a police officer and would have killed the cop if he had the chance. Instead he got shot and died. It had nothing to do with him being black, and everything to do with him being a thug. Wilson even said he just asked Brown to move out of the street. If he had done so, Wilson would have driven on and Brown would have not been shot and would have had a chance to get away with his robbery of the store. Instead he decided to confront the cop and attack him.

                          That you keep refusing to accept any explanation and think that no matter what that Brown was the victim here instead of the perpetrator shows that you live in a fantasy world. This isn't a TV cop show where they can just whip out a can of mace or a taser to slow someone down. It was real life and Brown was threatening Wilson's life. Wilson was justified in using deadly force.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            It seems that we've covered the infeasibility of shooting to wound (outside scripted movies and TV shows) ad nauseam. I cannot believe that anyone still thinks that is a viable option.
                            It seems to me that a simple trip to a gun range might cure a lot of people of that thinking. Twenty yards (for example) isn't all that far until you're actually trying to shoot accurately at that distance with a handgun. Most people would be shocked at their inaccuracy.
                            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                              It seems to me that a simple trip to a gun range might cure a lot of people of that thinking. Twenty yards (for example) isn't all that far until you're actually trying to shoot accurately at that distance with a handgun. Most people would be shocked at their inaccuracy.
                              Not to mention a moving target. The local advice around these parts of remote Alaska is that if you are going to carry a revolver for bear defense you need to be able to hit a moving target about the size of a bowling ball with at least 4 of 6 shots in under 6 seconds. It's been estimated that to gain that level of proficiency you need to put about 600 pounds of lead down rage in training. That's 600 pounds and not rounds.
                              I don't think most departments are able, even if they are willing, to devote that much time and $$ to get their officers to that level.

                              *edit* btw that 600 pounds of lead works out to about 12,300 rounds in a 44 mag
                              Last edited by alaskazimm; 11-26-2014, 02:39 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
                                Not to mention a moving target. The local advice around these parts of remote Alaska is that if you are going to carry a revolver for bear defense you need to be able to hit a moving target about the size of a bowling ball with at least 4 of 6 shots in under 6 seconds. It's been estimated that to gain that level of proficiency you need to put about 600 pounds of lead down rage in training. That's 600 pounds and not rounds.
                                I don't think most departments are able, even if they are willing, to devote that much time and $$ to get their officers to that level.

                                *edit* btw that 600 pounds of lead works out to about 12,300 rounds in a 44 mag
                                In fairness, a bear does not go down easy.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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