Ferguson shooting indictment announcement coming at 9PM EST

[Mountain Man]

I'll also point out that this is another reason I consider square_peg to be liberal in outlook.

I'm guessing he considers himself a "moderate" simply so he doesn't have to wear the "liberal" label along with all it implies.

[One Bad Pig]

Couldn't Brown have just not attacked him in the first place? Couldn't Brown have not tried to grab his gun? You never seem to think that would be the preferred solution to the situation. It's always "what could have Wilson done not to kill Brown" not "What could Brown have done or not done to not get himself killed"

I'll also point out that this is another reason I consider square_peg to be liberal in outlook.

[Sparko]

Don't like to intrude on other people's discussions, but since you mentioned me in that post...I thought of something regarding what happened when he was in the car. According to the testimony (page 209,

I then placed my car in reverse and backed up and I backed up just past them and then angled my vehicle, the back of my vehicle to kind of cut them off to keep them somewhat contained. As I did that, I go to open the door and I say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown.

It's at this point that he says Brown kicked the door shut, reached in and started punching him. Now, I've never been inside a police car, but assuming that it's essentially designed like most cars here in America, could Wilson not have reached with his free right hand to the clutch or ignition buttons, shifted it to drive, and then stepped on the gas pedal? After all, he never said that he actually turned the engine off; from his account, it sounds like he left the car running. If he steps on the gas pedal, the car surges forward, breaking free of Brown, and then he's safe from getting punched without needing to use a gun. He doesn't need to drive far away, just zip forward on a quick spurt, then hit the brakes and turn around to locate Brown and see what he's doing. If he's running towards the car, Wilson now has more space, and if he's running away, Wilson can turn the car around and pursue him.

sheesh. woulda coulda shoulda. No I don't believe he could. He was struggling with Brown, and Brown was punching him and pushing him. He didn't have enough time to reach the gear lever or step on the gas, or whatever weird scenario you will think up next. He dealt with the situation as best he could, fighting off Brown.

Couldn't Brown have just not attacked him in the first place? Couldn't Brown have not tried to grab his gun? You never seem to think that would be the preferred solution to the situation. It's always "what could have Wilson done not to kill Brown" not "What could Brown have done or not done to not get himself killed"

[Mountain Man]

And I'd like to think that money grows on trees.

[fm93]

Let's try an experiment. You drive up to me in your car, then without warning, I will start violently punching you in the face through the car window and attempting to wrestle a pistol away from you.

Well, I was raising the possibility of Wilson stepping on the gas without reaching for his pistol in the first place. So this technically doesn't apply.

If you can calmly consider all of your available options, weighing the pros and cons of each, and then implement the most effective one to end the confrontation then you win.

I don't know for sure what I'd come up with, but I've always leaned heavily towards the "flight" part of the "fight-or-flight" instinct--I'm not a very confrontational person--so I believe it's entirely plausible that at some point it would cross my mind to escape by flooring it.

[One Bad Pig]

Let's try an experiment. You drive up to me in your car, then without warning, I will start violently punching you in the face through the car window and attempting to wrestle a pistol away from you. If you can calmly consider all of your available options, weighing the pros and cons of each, and then implement the most effective one to end the confrontation then you win.

In part two of the experiment, attempt to chase someone on foot in your car (in an urban area, not the Utah Salt Flats) without running him over (which is likely to do serious damage if not kill him).

[Mountain Man]

Don't like to intrude on other people's discussions, but since you mentioned me in that post...I thought of something regarding what happened when he was in the car. According to the testimony (page 209,

I then placed my car in reverse and backed up and I backed up just past them and then angled my vehicle, the back of my vehicle to kind of cut them off to keep them somewhat contained. As I did that, I go to open the door and I say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown.

It's at this point that he says Brown kicked the door shut, reached in and started punching him. Now, I've never been inside a police car, but assuming that it's essentially designed like most cars here in America, could Wilson not have reached with his free right hand to the clutch or ignition buttons, shifted it to drive, and then stepped on the gas pedal? After all, he never said that he actually turned the engine off; from his account, it sounds like he left the car running. If he steps on the gas pedal, the car surges forward, breaking free of Brown, and then he's safe from getting punched without needing to use a gun. He doesn't need to drive far away, just zip forward on a quick spurt, then hit the brakes and turn around to locate Brown and see what he's doing. If he's running towards the car, Wilson now has more space, and if he's running away, Wilson can turn the car around and pursue him.

Let's try an experiment. You drive up to me in your car, then without warning, I will start violently punching you in the face through the car window and attempting to wrestle a pistol away from you. If you can calmly consider all of your available options, weighing the pros and cons of each, and then implement the most effective one to end the confrontation then you win.

[fm93]

He's saying that you don't have to click on "subscriptions". When you click on the button that says "settings" at the top of the screen, your subscribed threads will display right in front of you.

Quick correction--that "There are no subscribed threads to display" message IS what comes up when I click "Settings." Clicking "Subscriptions" on the left brings up a message that says "This folder is currently empty." I accidentally conflated the two.

ETA: Okay, the subscriptions work now. Thanks.

[fm93]

He had a job to do. Once he was assaulted and had someone try to take away his gun, he had a sworn duty to apprehend the criminal before he could get away and possibly hurt others. Also, if you read the transcript, his radio was knocked off channel and backup was not on its way (he thought it was but it wasn't) - so his decision to pursue was the correct one. What good is a cop that just hides in his car anyway? What's next? Police not doing anything because they might hurt a criminal? I don't want my community policed by officers that are too afraid to do their job. And if it comes down to someone getting hurt or killed, I would rather it be the criminal than me, someone else, or the officer.

Don't like to intrude on other people's discussions, but since you mentioned me in that post...I thought of something regarding what happened when he was in the car. According to the testimony (page 209,

I then placed my car in reverse and backed up and I backed up just past them and then angled my vehicle, the back of my vehicle to kind of cut them off to keep them somewhat contained. As I did that, I go to open the door and I say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown.

It's at this point that he says Brown kicked the door shut, reached in and started punching him. Now, I've never been inside a police car, but assuming that it's essentially designed like most cars here in America, could Wilson not have reached with his free right hand to the clutch or ignition buttons, shifted it to drive, and then stepped on the gas pedal? After all, he never said that he actually turned the engine off; from his account, it sounds like he left the car running. If he steps on the gas pedal, the car surges forward, breaking free of Brown, and then he's safe from getting punched without needing to use a gun. He doesn't need to drive far away, just zip forward on a quick spurt, then hit the brakes and turn around to locate Brown and see what he's doing. If he's running towards the car, Wilson now has more space, and if he's running away, Wilson can turn the car around and pursue him.

[Darth Executor]

You would rather have someone die than give them your wallet? Your credit cards and petty cash are worth more than a human life?

Shouldn't you be asking the robber that instead? Also, does this logic continue to apply if you replace wallet, credit cards and petty cash with "vagina"?

[Sparko]

I've done that, but then when I click on "Subscriptions" on the left-side column, it simply says "There are no subscribed threads to display in this folder for this time period."

When you click settings, it should automatically load the subscriptions page. Check your profile to make sure that the options are set to automatically subscribe you to any thread you post in.

go here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/pr...do=editoptions
and on the right side look for "Default Thread Subscription Mode"
on the drop down box choose "through my control panel only" or one of the email options if you want emails sent to you.

[Adrift]

I've done that, but then when I click on "Subscriptions" on the left-side column, it simply says "There are no subscribed threads to display in this folder for this time period."

He's saying that you don't have to click on "subscriptions". When you click on the button that says "settings" at the top of the screen, your subscribed threads will display right in front of you.

[Sparko]

Just a nitpick, but Brown didn't try to take the gun. According to Wilson, Brown only touched the gun after Wilson tried to point it at him, and even then was trying to point the gun towards Wilson so that he couldn't shoot.

He also had a duty to protect his own life. Police shouldn't be charging into dangerous situations without regard for their own safety. Without precautions, the job they're performing could fail, no matter how valiant the charge. It's like with plane safety: put on your own oxygen mask before you help other people put on theirs. If he can't confront an unarmed person without killing them, he should remove himself from the situation. He was too afraid (rightly so) to do his job. That's why he had to use a gun. I want my community policed by officers that only kill people as a last resort.

He wasn't there to confront brown. He was there responding to another call and came across Brown. You think police have the luxury of choosing which situations to get into and which they don't? How was he to know Brown was going to attack him? He merely asked Brown to step out of the middle of the road. It went haywire after that. Not only that, but as in most communities, there is usually one cop for maybe 1000 people. They are spread pretty thin. They are often put into situations where they are alone and have to handle a situation without backup available. They can't just sit on their hands and wait around till other cops show up. If something goes down suddenly, like with Brown, they have to respond to it themselves.

They have an incredibly dangerous job to begin with. That is WHY they carry guns and why they are allowed to use them in defending themselves and the public. Their jobs are already risky. They don't have to let themselves be beat up or killed just to save the life of a criminal who attacks them. It WAS a last resort. He tried to talk calmly to Brown. Brown attacked him. Even after that he warned Brown several times to stop before shooting him. Even while being shot, Brown kept coming until he was hit in the head. If bullets did not stop him, I don't think mace would have either. Shooting him was a last resort.


also, Brown DID try to take the gun:
pg 32
1 he said the individual laying on the street came
2 up to the side of his car and started hitting on him
3 through the window.
4 I said hitting you?
5 He goes, yeah, he reached in, he hit me on
6 the side of my face several times, and grabbed at my
7 shirt, grabbed at my hands and arms.
8 He said I was trying to get out of the
9 vehicle and he wouldn't let me out, he kept pushing
10 the door closed.
11 The individual reached in and was trying
12 to grab at his pistol, his pistol came out of his
13 holster. He told me he had control of the weapon,
14 but it was being pointed at him. He had the gun in
15 his hand, but the muzzle of the weapon had been
16 turned where his hand was actually turned toward
17 him.

also see page 214 for Wilson's direct testimony.

[fm93]

It does work. To view threads that you are subscribed to and see new posts in those threads, just click on "settings" at the very top right hand of the browser window.

I've done that, but then when I click on "Subscriptions" on the left-side column, it simply says "There are no subscribed threads to display in this folder for this time period."

[Psychic Missile]

Since you have previously said that a gun is never appropriate against an unarmed individual, your comment here leads me to believe that you think an unarmed person is incapable of using lethal force. Am I reading you right?

You are not, and I should have worded it better. I was using "lethal force" as a synonym for gun.