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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    He's saying that you don't have to click on "subscriptions". When you click on the button that says "settings" at the top of the screen, your subscribed threads will display right in front of you.
    Quick correction--that "There are no subscribed threads to display" message IS what comes up when I click "Settings." Clicking "Subscriptions" on the left brings up a message that says "This folder is currently empty." I accidentally conflated the two.

    ETA: Okay, the subscriptions work now. Thanks.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

    Comment


    • Originally posted by square_peg View Post
      Don't like to intrude on other people's discussions, but since you mentioned me in that post...I thought of something regarding what happened when he was in the car. According to the testimony (page 209,

      I then placed my car in reverse and backed up and I backed up just past them and then angled my vehicle, the back of my vehicle to kind of cut them off to keep them somewhat contained. As I did that, I go to open the door and I say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown.


      It's at this point that he says Brown kicked the door shut, reached in and started punching him. Now, I've never been inside a police car, but assuming that it's essentially designed like most cars here in America, could Wilson not have reached with his free right hand to the clutch or ignition buttons, shifted it to drive, and then stepped on the gas pedal? After all, he never said that he actually turned the engine off; from his account, it sounds like he left the car running. If he steps on the gas pedal, the car surges forward, breaking free of Brown, and then he's safe from getting punched without needing to use a gun. He doesn't need to drive far away, just zip forward on a quick spurt, then hit the brakes and turn around to locate Brown and see what he's doing. If he's running towards the car, Wilson now has more space, and if he's running away, Wilson can turn the car around and pursue him.
      Let's try an experiment. You drive up to me in your car, then without warning, I will start violently punching you in the face through the car window and attempting to wrestle a pistol away from you. If you can calmly consider all of your available options, weighing the pros and cons of each, and then implement the most effective one to end the confrontation then you win.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Let's try an experiment. You drive up to me in your car, then without warning, I will start violently punching you in the face through the car window and attempting to wrestle a pistol away from you. If you can calmly consider all of your available options, weighing the pros and cons of each, and then implement the most effective one to end the confrontation then you win.
        In part two of the experiment, attempt to chase someone on foot in your car (in an urban area, not the Utah Salt Flats) without running him over (which is likely to do serious damage if not kill him).
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Let's try an experiment. You drive up to me in your car, then without warning, I will start violently punching you in the face through the car window and attempting to wrestle a pistol away from you.
          Well, I was raising the possibility of Wilson stepping on the gas without reaching for his pistol in the first place. So this technically doesn't apply.

          If you can calmly consider all of your available options, weighing the pros and cons of each, and then implement the most effective one to end the confrontation then you win.
          I don't know for sure what I'd come up with, but I've always leaned heavily towards the "flight" part of the "fight-or-flight" instinct--I'm not a very confrontational person--so I believe it's entirely plausible that at some point it would cross my mind to escape by flooring it.
          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

          Comment


          • And I'd like to think that money grows on trees.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by square_peg View Post
              Don't like to intrude on other people's discussions, but since you mentioned me in that post...I thought of something regarding what happened when he was in the car. According to the testimony (page 209,

              I then placed my car in reverse and backed up and I backed up just past them and then angled my vehicle, the back of my vehicle to kind of cut them off to keep them somewhat contained. As I did that, I go to open the door and I say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown.


              It's at this point that he says Brown kicked the door shut, reached in and started punching him. Now, I've never been inside a police car, but assuming that it's essentially designed like most cars here in America, could Wilson not have reached with his free right hand to the clutch or ignition buttons, shifted it to drive, and then stepped on the gas pedal? After all, he never said that he actually turned the engine off; from his account, it sounds like he left the car running. If he steps on the gas pedal, the car surges forward, breaking free of Brown, and then he's safe from getting punched without needing to use a gun. He doesn't need to drive far away, just zip forward on a quick spurt, then hit the brakes and turn around to locate Brown and see what he's doing. If he's running towards the car, Wilson now has more space, and if he's running away, Wilson can turn the car around and pursue him.
              sheesh. woulda coulda shoulda. No I don't believe he could. He was struggling with Brown, and Brown was punching him and pushing him. He didn't have enough time to reach the gear lever or step on the gas, or whatever weird scenario you will think up next. He dealt with the situation as best he could, fighting off Brown.

              Couldn't Brown have just not attacked him in the first place? Couldn't Brown have not tried to grab his gun? You never seem to think that would be the preferred solution to the situation. It's always "what could have Wilson done not to kill Brown" not "What could Brown have done or not done to not get himself killed"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Couldn't Brown have just not attacked him in the first place? Couldn't Brown have not tried to grab his gun? You never seem to think that would be the preferred solution to the situation. It's always "what could have Wilson done not to kill Brown" not "What could Brown have done or not done to not get himself killed"
                I'll also point out that this is another reason I consider square_peg to be liberal in outlook.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I'll also point out that this is another reason I consider square_peg to be liberal in outlook.
                  I'm guessing he considers himself a "moderate" simply so he doesn't have to wear the "liberal" label along with all it implies.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    sheesh. woulda coulda shoulda. No I don't believe he could. He was struggling with Brown, and Brown was punching him and pushing him. He didn't have enough time to reach the gear lever or step on the gas
                    He didn't have enough time to stomp his foot on the gas pedal? It literally takes less than a second and only a few inches of movement from a body part that wasn't even exposed to Brown.

                    Couldn't Brown have just not attacked him in the first place? Couldn't Brown have not tried to grab his gun? You never seem to think that would be the preferred solution to the situation. It's always "what could have Wilson done not to kill Brown" not "What could Brown have done or not done to not get himself killed"
                    I don't know why you keep assuming that the two are mutually exclusive, when I've repeatedly said that Brown also did something gravely wrong and bears some of the burden.
                    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                    Comment


                    • Because he doesn't bear "some" of the burden (not even a "most", eh?), he bears all of it.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • Wonder how painful it is to die from a car driving off with you partway through the window?
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          He didn't have enough time to stomp his foot on the gas pedal? It literally takes less than a second and only a few inches of movement from a body part that wasn't even exposed to Brown.


                          I don't know why you keep assuming that the two are mutually exclusive, when I've repeatedly said that Brown also did something gravely wrong and bears some of the burden.
                          No, Wilson didn't have time to stomp on the gas pedal, you moron, because he was attempting to exit the vehicle when Brown slammed the door shut and started punching him. Or do you supposed Wilson opened the door of his patrol car without first putting it into park?

                          "[Wilson] then backed his car up, and says Brown slammed the door on him when he opened it to try to get out."
                          http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2024569

                          And Brown doesn't bear just some of the burden, he bears all of the burden. If he had kept his cool and simply cooperated with Officer Wilson instead of trying to fight his way out then he'd be alive today. Brown's actions gave Wilson very few options, and Wilson picked the most effective and readily available means of stopping his attacker.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                            You would rather have someone die than give them your wallet? Your credit cards and petty cash are worth more than a human life? I don't think there is a legitimate use of lethal force unless it is to fight against lethal force.
                            It has no relationship to what I prefer. If someone is involved in that sort of thing there is no telling what they plan to do. I see what ever happens to a thief or rapist or murderer is their own fault - not mine. If I am threatened I have no way of knowing, until it is too late, what their intentions are. If they are killed it is too bad but not my fault, their own.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                              And as the link that *I* provided shows, an entire police department is reporting that there are devices like pepper spray that are capable of disabling a potential attacker without kill him. Hardly unrealistic.


                              You seem to have ignored my example earlier. Driving drunk and over the speed limit is absolutely a stupid, dangerous act that has empirically dangerous consequences. But do you believe that creating options that lessen the chance of death, such as creating better airbags, is somehow "enabling" drunk drivers? Is trying to prevent people from dying in the unfortunate case that they do choose something dangerous "encouraging drunk drivers to make decisions based on a world view that's empirically false?"


                              Strawman aside, do you really see no middle ground? We make it clear that if you do something criminal, you can be apprehended via painful methods like tasing and pepper spraying, be found guilty in a trial, lose the support of your friends and family, and then be thrown in prison for the rest of your life. It has nothing to do with not limiting their personal potential, but rather merely keeping them alive so that grace has room and time to abound.
                              In an ideal world no-one would ever die, except in their beds, peacefully. But that's not the world we live in. I think Wilson would certainly have preferred to restrain Brown, but circumstances and Brown's choices prevented that. Second-guessing him now serves no useful purpose that I can see.

                              Originally posted by square_peg
                              There was also legal precedent in America for people to own slaves and kill them if they tried to resist correction, and do so without punishment. Not that I'm accusing the cops of being like slavemasters, but merely pointing out that something is legal does not have a bearing on whether it is morally right.

                              I don't think Wilson did anything morally wrong.

                              Originally posted by square_peg
                              This is true, but considering that the issue is whether the reaction necessarily had to involve lethal force, it's not completely relevant.


                              As has been repeatedly pointed out, the majority of the protesters have been peaceful. You're conflating a relatively fringe group with the movements as a whole.

                              Not at all. I specifically limited my statement to sub-groups of the 'movement'.


                              Originally posted by square_peg
                              I am doing that, just like I'm questioning and morally condemning the people who choose to drink while driving. And just as I'm not "enabling" their behavior when I say that I don't want their dangerous choices to result in death, neither am I "enabling" people to make Brown's choices.

                              (Additionally, those last few sentences may be unwarranted. Do we really know for sure that his parents did a poor job raising him, or that his community didn't have positive role models? Engaging in criminal behavior doesn't always relate to parenting failure. There's no indication that the parents of the Columbine shooters raised their sons in a particularly bad way, for instance.)

                              Here's the thing - you're more than happy to indulge in hypotheticals when it comes to things Wilson might have done differently, but very reluctant to look at what Brown could have done differently. His step-father virtually incited a riot - maybe, just maybe, there were some family issues that contributed to Brown's poor choices...?

                              Your lack of balance, when Brown was clearly substantially at fault feeds into the perception that people are unable to look at incidents like this in anything like a neutral manner. That Brown was black and Wilson white seems to me to be a purely incidental fact in this particular case - yet people have blown it into a 'racial' issue, to fit the narrative of African Americans being oppressed by whites. If a large percentage of African Americans are going to see everything as a 'racial injustice' issue they risk creating a negative reaction - where people are going to stop believing real racial problems; and it feeds into a 'victim' mindset that is unhealthy and dangerous.


                              Originally posted by square_peg
                              It's hard to say that a man is serving the community when he kills a member of said community.
                              By acting as he did, Brown had removed himself from the community of law-abiding and moral citizens. Communities (sadly) need someone who will, if necessary, use force, even lethal force, to protect them from thugs, bullies and criminals.



                              Originally posted by square_peg
                              And even if Wilson is truly completely innocent and there was literally nothing else he could've done, it's still hard to feel that much sympathy for someone who's alive and physically well. Sympathy is generally reserved for the oppressed and downtrodden, which he is not.
                              There's that lack of balance again. Wilson has had death threats, cyberstalking, bounties placed on him, his former home address circulated, and now lives in hiding with volunteers protecting him.

                              You have no sympathy for Wilson, and yet you wonder why other posters have no sympathy for your concerns for Brown????




                              Originally posted by square_peg
                              I've been clear that my response is that he was both, not merely one of the two. My message, at least, is this:

                              "If you do something to harm human beings, I will not hesitate to punish and imprison you for your choices, because human beings have intrinsic worth and a right to life that I won't let you take away...and so I'll make that punishment as severe as necessary without killing you, because you're ALSO a human being, supposedly made in the image of God, and you, too, have a right to life...and if God truly died for our sins and extends grace to us that we may repent and be reformed, so, too, should you have that opportunity."

                              That sounds great, and I'd agree, except for one caveat... ...what do you do with someone who won't allow themselves to be dealt with by the justice system? Someone who is willing to kill others rather than be imprisoned?

                              And how do we deal with that when we don't know who all those people are until after they've killed... citizens, ...police officers, ...prison guards
                              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                He wasn't there to confront brown. He was there responding to another call and came across Brown. You think police have the luxury of choosing which situations to get into and which they don't? How was he to know Brown was going to attack him? He merely asked Brown to step out of the middle of the road. It went haywire after that. Not only that, but as in most communities, there is usually one cop for maybe 1000 people. They are spread pretty thin. They are often put into situations where they are alone and have to handle a situation without backup available. They can't just sit on their hands and wait around till other cops show up. If something goes down suddenly, like with Brown, they have to respond to it themselves.

                                They have an incredibly dangerous job to begin with. That is WHY they carry guns and why they are allowed to use them in defending themselves and the public. Their jobs are already risky. They don't have to let themselves be beat up or killed just to save the life of a criminal who attacks them.
                                I agree with all of this and don't feel it is contradictory to what I've said.

                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                It WAS a last resort. He tried to talk calmly to Brown. Brown attacked him. Even after that he warned Brown several times to stop before shooting him. Even while being shot, Brown kept coming until he was hit in the head. If bullets did not stop him, I don't think mace would have either. Shooting him was a last resort.
                                He said in his testimony that the neighborhood was very rough and anti-police. He knew he shot Brown. He felt that Brown was much, much stronger than him. He radioed for backup that was he knew was nearby. If he got out of the car and chased Brown, it would clearly be a dangerous situation. A situation so dangerous he would feel it necessary to use his gun. So why not stay in the car? They can catch an injured man he has a perfect description of alive. He won't be in danger. There won't be a media circus.

                                My main objection to the whole scenario is that I question the validity of the use of guns on unarmed people. If the police in the UK handle unarmed suspects without shooting them, why can't the police in the US?

                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                also, Brown DID try to take the gun:
                                pg 32
                                1 he said the individual laying on the street came
                                2 up to the side of his car and started hitting on him
                                3 through the window.
                                4 I said hitting you?
                                5 He goes, yeah, he reached in, he hit me on
                                6 the side of my face several times, and grabbed at my
                                7 shirt, grabbed at my hands and arms.
                                8 He said I was trying to get out of the
                                9 vehicle and he wouldn't let me out, he kept pushing
                                10 the door closed.
                                11 The individual reached in and was trying
                                12 to grab at his pistol, his pistol came out of his
                                13 holster.
                                He told me he had control of the weapon,
                                14 but it was being pointed at him. He had the gun in
                                15 his hand, but the muzzle of the weapon had been
                                16 turned where his hand was actually turned toward
                                17 him.

                                also see page 214 for Wilson's direct testimony.
                                On page 214 Wilson said he drew his gun and told Brown to move away. Then Brown grabbed his gun. On pages 268 and 269 Wilson said Brown didn't grab the gun until Wilson removed it from his holster.

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