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Another Attack On Freedom

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  • Another Attack On Freedom

    But these people are not backing down...

    WESTMINSTER, Mass. — The fury — and make no mistake, it is white-hot fury — went way beyond the ordinary wrath of offended citizenry. A plan here to ban the sale of tobacco has ignited a call to arms.

    The outrage is aimed at a proposal by the local Board of Health that could make Westminster the first town in the country where no one could buy cigarettes, e-cigarettes, cigars and chewing tobacco.

    The uproar stems not from a desire by people here to smoke — only 17 percent do (a smidge higher than the statewide average). Many say they have never touched tobacco and find the habit disgusting. Rather, they perceive the ban as a frontal assault on their individual liberties. And they say it would cripple the eight retailers in town who sell tobacco products.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/us...one-share&_r=1
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    I have very mixed feelings about this.

    I really hate smoking, and I hate that people smoke in public places, and I have no qualms at all about bans that prevent this behavior. On top of that smoking is extremely unhealthy, comparable to severe obesity, its highly addictive and unless you're a pipe smoker (which most smokers aren't) you're not doing it for the taste, the perfume or the romanticism of smoking (unless you believe cigarrettes are sexy). Oh and second hand smoke is kinda dangerous.

    Its a purely carnal, crass, expensive, foul-smelling, cough-inducing, cigbutt-litter-creating, habit-forming, health-killing, virtue-breaking, product.

    However... that's my relationship with cigarettes.

    I have a respect for pipe smokers, and even those who like cigars. I've always loved the smell of pipe smoke from a good english tobacco, and if it wasn't so unhealthy or expensive I would join in without a problem. Its also smoked in a different way from cigarettes and you're not encouraged to inhale, but mostly taste the smoke (still unhealthy though).

    So while I wouldn't mind in the least cigarettes being excommunicated, anathemized, exorcised, butted out and properly deported from my country. Outright outlawing tobacco is overkill.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 11-18-2014, 09:49 AM.

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    • #3
      Sounds like the tobacco equivalent of a dry county. Which doesn't actually reduce drinking, of course. In fact, statistically there are more DUI arrests per capita in dry counties than in wet ones. The roads at the borders of the adjacent wet counties are lined with bars, and do great business. These 8 retailers will have to relocate to the town limits - a painful expense for them, and probably an inconvenience for most smokers, who will now buy in larger quantities to reduce trips.

      But nothing here bans the smoking behavior, it only changes buying habits a little bit. It's nowhere near the inconvenience to smokers of making them stand outside in the freezing cold during the winter, but that didn't discourage them either. Just another way of saying "we don't want your kind around here", ineffective in reducing smoking, but quite effective (as the article says) in making people angry.

      At least there is a bit more justification for this, than for mandating motorcycle helmets.

      Comment


      • #4
        Political correctness doing what it does best (worst?).

        I agree with Leonhard --- I think smoking is disgusting. I remember the line I used to hear "kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray".

        And, as much as I hate to agree with Phank , I used to live in a "dry county", and, sure enough, the city limits were lined "just outside the line" with bars and "beverage barns", and the roads (Smith County, Texas) were nicknamed things like "massacre mile" for a reason.

        Here's another aspect ---- if cigarettes are so horrible, why are they TAXED instead of PROHIBITED? (Oh, yeah, we tried that once with booze )
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #5
          Just another sign of the Nanny State.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            But these people are not backing down...
            It’s not often I agree with you seer. Tobacco and a few other recreational strength mind altering substances should be freely available in your local corner shop.
            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
            “not all there” - you know who you are

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Political correctness doing what it does best (worst?).

              I agree with Leonhard --- I think smoking is disgusting. I remember the line I used to hear "kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray".

              And, as much as I hate to agree with Phank , I used to live in a "dry county", and, sure enough, the city limits were lined "just outside the line" with bars and "beverage barns", and the roads (Smith County, Texas) were nicknamed things like "massacre mile" for a reason.

              Here's another aspect ---- if cigarettes are so horrible, why are they TAXED instead of PROHIBITED? (Oh, yeah, we tried that once with booze )
              What does "political correctness" have to do with any of this?
              Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

              I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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              • #8
                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                What does "political correctness" have to do with any of this?
                http://www.smokingaloud.com/discriminate.html

                Not that I agree with ALL their sentiments, but...
                Source: Linked Article Above

                Politically Correct Discrimination

                What began as a campaign to encourage smokers to respect the wishes of non-smokers has evolved into outright hostility by anti-smoking fanatics with the segregation and demonization of anyone who chooses to smoke.

                © Copyright Original Source

                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  http://www.smokingaloud.com/discriminate.html

                  Not that I agree with ALL their sentiments, but...
                  Source: Linked Article Above

                  Politically Correct Discrimination

                  What began as a campaign to encourage smokers to respect the wishes of non-smokers has evolved into outright hostility by anti-smoking fanatics with the segregation and demonization of anyone who chooses to smoke.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Just like everything else liberal.

                  1. Claim "we don't want to take away your rights or beliefs, we just want an equal voice" --- "Don't worry!!! there is no slippery slope!"
                  2. As soon as they get any grip at all, shut down everyone who disagrees with them, and demonize their views.

                  It is the same strategy to for "Gay Pride" "Same-sex Marriages" "Religion" and now "Tobacco"

                  It is all about control, not tolerance.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Just like everything else liberal.

                    1. Claim "we don't want to take away your rights or beliefs, we just want an equal voice" --- "Don't worry!!! there is no slippery slope!"
                    2. As soon as they get any grip at all, shut down everyone who disagrees with them, and demonize their views.

                    It is the same strategy to for "Gay Pride" "Same-sex Marriages" "Religion" and now "Tobacco"

                    It is all about control, not tolerance.
                    Overstated, overgeneralised nonsense ... As usual as regards anything regarding a progressive viewpoint. You have liberals here agreeing this is a bad way to go making your statement wrong on its face. You are capable of much better thinking.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Just like everything else liberal.

                      1. Claim "we don't want to take away your rights or beliefs, we just want an equal voice" --- "Don't worry!!! there is no slippery slope!"
                      The only genuine violation of conservative rights/freedoms that anyone on this site has provided is the Houston mayor's sermon subpoena, and she's not going to get away with that. Your rights aren't being taken away at all. Getting suspended by a TV show for making certain remarks isn't a violation of freedom of speech. Being prevented from committing discrimination when you have a bakery that qualifies as a public accommodation isn't a loss of freedom of religion. So no, there indeed doesn't appear to be a slippery slope or removal of rights.

                      2. As soon as they get any grip at all, shut down everyone who disagrees with them, and demonize their views.
                      Sort of like how you're demonizing liberalism (which I don't fully agree with myself) right now with these broad-brush strokes?

                      It is the same strategy to for "Gay Pride" "Same-sex Marriages" "Religion" and now "Tobacco"
                      While some people go too far in their reactions to the anti-gay side, I'm really not sure where this "demonization" of tobacco users is taking place. Banning tobacco isn't demonization.

                      Not to mention, it's inaccurate to place tobacco restriction in the same category as same-sex marriage legalization, because 1) restriction and legalization are opposites, and 2) smoking tobacco is demonstrably and inherently harmful to the user and to others, whereas homosexuality and same-sex marriage are not inherently harmful.

                      It is all about control, not tolerance.
                      The tolerance argument technically doesn't have to be extended to tobacco, as the idea of tolerance is supposed to be that if you personally dislike something but it isn't harmful to you, then you ought to tolerate it--whereas tobacco could be harmful to you personally if you inhale too much secondhand smoke.
                      Last edited by fm93; 11-18-2014, 11:04 PM.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                        . . . 2) smoking tobacco is demonstrably and inherently harmful to the user and to others, whereas homosexuality and same-sex marriage are not inherently harmful.


                        The tolerance argument technically doesn't have to be extended to tobacco, as the idea of tolerance is supposed to be that if you personally dislike something but it isn't harmful to you, then you ought to tolerate it--whereas tobacco could be harmful to you personally if you inhale too much secondhand smoke.
                        I think you make good points, but I'm puzzled. Does the harm of smoking to "others" come from second-hand smoke? Or is it also "babies die because people smoke"? If readers are puzzled by the last sentence, they should bear in mind that fires and explosions kill people. There was a spectacular explosion in Texas many months ago. Did it start because someone smoked at the wrong time in the wrong place? I do not know, but it could have happened that way. I also don't know how many babies died in the explosion, but there were surely many fires and explosions that killed many babies.
                        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I definitely agree with seer on this one. All drugs should be legal.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                            I definitely agree with seer on this one. All drugs should be legal.
                            I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not....
                            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                              I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not....
                              Why should we not ban tobacco but ban other drugs? Banning what substances a reasonable adult can put into their own body is an attack on freedom. Plus, we know from experience that banning drugs doesn't get rid of them, it just drives the market underground. If the goal is to reduce the number of tobacco smokers, attack the cause, not the symptoms.

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