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Liberals Are Killing the Liberal Arts

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    Oh, good heavens. I wondered why a discussion on trigger warnings was like pulling teeth. You're complaining about a college student's overuse of trigger warnings rather than the use of trigger warnings on syllabi or books and generalizing a fairly rare use into "liberals are killing the liberal arts." Kind of like someone going to infowars and generalizing Alex Jones' rantings onto the entire Republican electorate. Except worse because, again, this is just a random student.
    There there. You wanted to know where I quoted "ableist slur" from. I linked the one instance referred to in the article; that hardly implies that it is the only instance. No need to assume so much and start getting in a huff.

    How often are such content warnings used? Where are they found? Is this being advocated by a significant amount of people to become more mainstream or is this a fringe riding on the actual discussion about trigger warnings?
    I don't have exact statistics. But I can link you to an open letter written by professors "concerned about the movement on college campuses to mandate or encourage 'trigger warnings' – notifications that class material may cause severe negative reactions – on class syllabuses". Watching their colleagues receive "phone calls from deans and other administrators investigating student complaints that they have included 'triggering' material in their courses, with or without warnings", they "feel that this movement is already having a chilling effect on our teaching and pedagogy."

    Or perhaps you might want letters such as this from other professors articulating the opposite viewpoint: that trigger warnings should be used in classrooms?

    Now see, there's your problem. When I talk about the opinion of mental health experts, the inclusion of empirical evidence to back opinion is assumed — that's why we separate a conclusion of the APA or a psychiatrist writing in a peer-reviewed journal from Ablow's or Krauthammer's rant of the day.
    You may employ that assumption; I do not.

    Your depiction of such professionals as "quacks" means that you, almost by definition, deny such an implicit inclusion of evidence-based opinion. You seem to have an unwarranted dim view of mental health professionals and the amount of work that goes into forming an expert opinion.
    Indeed. Problem?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      There there. You wanted to know where I quoted "ableist slur" from. I linked the one instance referred to in the article; that hardly implies that it is the only instance. No need to assume so much and start getting in a huff.
      You're using "ableist slur" as either a representative example of trigger warnings or as a red herring to distinguish the trigger warnings that people are actually talking about putting on books, syllabi and other media from content warnings already common and accepted. If you have other, more representative, sources regarding the use of "ableist slur" than a student transcript in a college newspaper, it would greatly benefit your argument to produce them. Otherwise, it's really looking like a red herring.


      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      I don't have exact statistics. But I can link you to an open letter written by professors "concerned about the movement on college campuses to mandate or encourage 'trigger warnings' – notifications that class material may cause severe negative reactions – on class syllabuses". Watching their colleagues receive "phone calls from deans and other administrators investigating student complaints that they have included 'triggering' material in their courses, with or without warnings", they "feel that this movement is already having a chilling effect on our teaching and pedagogy."

      Or perhaps you might want letters such as this from other professors articulating the opposite viewpoint: that trigger warnings should be used in classrooms?
      The open letter is talking about trigger warnings in the normal sense: graphic violence, sexual assault, etc. Like content warnings on television. If you want to talk about the merit of actual trigger warning use among professional publishers or educators, you're going to have to drop the "ableist slur" nonsense: I've never seen that kind of "trigger warning" used seriously among publishers or educators. If it does happen, it's extremely rare.


      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      You may employ that assumption; I do not.


      Indeed. Problem?
      Yes. It makes you look somewhat ridiculous to not recognize mental health professionals discussing topics among peers and in peer-reviewed journals as experts worthy of more weight than some random person expressing an unfounded bias. At the very least, it displays a shade of anti-intellectualism that reduces credibility on matters pertaining to mental health.
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        You're using "ableist slur" as either a representative example of trigger warnings or as a red herring to distinguish the trigger warnings that people are actually talking about putting on books, syllabi and other media from content warnings already common and accepted. If you have other, more representative, sources regarding the use of "ableist slur" than a student transcript in a college newspaper, it would greatly benefit your argument to produce them. Otherwise, it's really looking like a red herring.
        From Oberlin's College webpage:
        Triggers are not only relevant to sexual misconduct, but also to anything that might cause trauma. Be aware of racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism, cissexism, ableism, and other issues of privilege and oppression. Realize that all forms of violence are traumatic, and that your students have lives before and outside your classroom, experiences you may not expect or understand.
        Originally posted by Sam
        The open letter is talking about trigger warnings in the normal sense: graphic violence, sexual assault, etc. Like content warnings on television. If you want to talk about the merit of actual trigger warning use among professional publishers or educators, you're going to have to drop the "ableist slur" nonsense: I've never seen that kind of "trigger warning" used seriously among publishers or educators. If it does happen, it's extremely rare.
        From the letter: "awareness that the faculty who teach the very materials that help them understand and combat racism, sexism, heterosexism, ableism, etc., as well as trauma, violence, and practices of injustice".

        Yes. It makes you look somewhat ridiculous to not recognize mental health professionals discussing topics among peers and in peer-reviewed journals as experts worthy of more weight than some random person expressing an unfounded bias. At the very least, it displays a shade of anti-intellectualism that reduces credibility on matters pertaining to mental health.
        Thank you for being concerned about how I appear, but you really needn't bother.
        Last edited by Paprika; 11-13-2014, 01:01 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          From Oberlin's College webpage:


          From the letter: "awareness that the faculty who teach the very materials that help them understand and combat racism, sexism, heterosexism, ableism, etc., as well as trauma, violence, and practices of injustice".


          Thank you for being concerned about how I appear, but you really needn't bother.
          Well, that you have to go to archive.org that contains a passage from college staff that was removed after criticism says a lot about how common this is. Even so, you'll notice in reading that page that educators are told to be aware of those things, not to provide trigger warnings for all cases. I would want, as an administrator, to make sure my teachers weren't using the phrase "retarded," which would be a form of what's referred to here as ableism. But the page doesn't say to provide trigger warnings for such text. Rather, they use the example of suicide in "Things Fall Apart" — a worthwhile trigger warning. Another example given is:

          Tell students why you have chosen to include this material, even though you know it is triggering. For example:

          “…We are reading this work in spite of the author’s racist frameworks because his work was foundational to establishing the field of anthropology, and because I think together we can challenge, deconstruct, and learn from his mistakes.”


          Which is very different than a header saying "Warning: ableism" or [ableist slur].

          You're taking a real issue that's been given real thought, finding a ridiculous or rare usage and defining the whole by that. Not particularly helpful to real discussion of the topic.
          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sam View Post
            Well, that you have to go to archive.org that contains a passage from college staff that was removed after criticism says a lot about how common this is.
            And when have I claimed that it is common? We are only seeing birth pangs, after all.

            Now you wanted "more representative" sources for 'ableistic' triggers, preferably by educators or publishers; I gave you two.

            Even so, you'll notice in reading that page that educators are told to be aware of those things, not to provide trigger warnings for all cases.
            And when have I made a claim that they do?

            You're taking a real issue that's been given real thought, finding a ridiculous or rare usage and defining the whole by that. Not particularly helpful to real discussion of the topic.
            Where did I do so?

            Comment


            • #36
              I will add to this as I can:

              By Prof Melanie Yergeau:
              Trigger warnings aren't a disability-specific entity
              I suggest that the rhetoric of trigger warnings ... can help us uncover ableism engrained deep within our cultural space
              trigger warnings often foreground collective traumas, including but not limited to, racism, heterocentrism, and ableism (Cvetkovich, 2003)
              Course syllabus at Concordia University:
              As a ground rule, do not use language or make comments in class that could be interpreted as ableist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or otherwise phobic or oppressive. I am here to moderate the discussion and to make sure everyone feels comfortable in the room. Please talk to me anytime if you need support or if you feel triggered by anything raised in class discussions or in the readings.
              Course syllabus at Georgia Southern University:
              All texts read in this course, all class discussions, and all ancillary materials may contain instances of the following potential triggers, as well as other unanticipated and so unlisted potential triggers: ignorance; willful ignorance; cultural insensitivity; oppression; persecution; swearing, abuse (physical, mental, emotional, verbal, sexual), self-injurious behavior (self-harm, eating disorders, etc.), talk of drug use (legal, illegal, or psychiatric), suicide, descriptions or pictures of medical procedures, descriptions or pictures of violence or warfare (including instruments of violence), corpses, skulls, or skeletons; needles; racism; classism; sexism; heterosexism; cissexism, ableism; hatred of differing cultures or ethnicities; hatred of differing sexualities or genders; body image shaming; neuroatypical shaming; dismissal of lived oppressions, marginalization, illness, or differences; kidnapping (forceful deprivation of or disregard for personal autonomy; discussions of sex (even consensual); death or dying; beings in the natural world against which individuals may be phobic; pregnancy and childbirth; blood; serious injury; scarification; glorification of hate groups; elements which might inspire intrusive thoughts in those with psychological conditions such as PTSD, OCD, or clinical depression.
              Grand Valley State University Guide for Faculty and Staff 2014
              Examples of triggers:
              ...
              ―I feel so sorry for people with
              disabilities. It is such a tragedy.
              ...Ableism: A form of discrimination or social prejudice against people with disabilities.
              Ohio State University Course Syllabus:
              Content Disclaimer: Some of the issues we will discuss are controversial, about violence, and triggering; some people may be uncomfortable discussing some topics. If a topic is touchy, you may excuse yourself for a moment. This class addresses some of our most revered beliefs about culture, politics and power. Assume best intentions and respect the opinions of classmates. It is essential that we listen intently, respond respectfully and thoughtfully, and challenge each other to acknowledge the complexities of our diverse lived experiences.

              Interruption will not be tolerated; nor will clear malicious statements of a racist, sexist, homophobic, ableist, transphobic, classist, xenophobic, victim-blaming nature.
              Last edited by Paprika; 11-13-2014, 02:20 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                I will add to this as I can:

                By Prof Melanie Yergeau:


                Course syllabus at Concordia University:


                Course syllabus at Georgia Southern University:

                Grand Valley State University Guide for Faculty and Staff 2014

                Ohio State University Course Syllabus:

                But nothing in here supports your contention that there's a significant difference between content warnings on television and trigger warnings in published material. You even put two different parts of the Grand Valley State University guide together to make it appear as though "Ableism: a form of discrimination ..." is being used as a "trigger warning" when, in fact, that line appears in the glossary of terms. What you're citing here is almost entirely basic heads-up boilerplate about class discussions — certainly nothing that would serve as a precursor to censorship or anything bearing similarity to your depiction of trigger warnings as "warning: ableist slurs'."

                Now you seem to be contesting the mere existence of the term "ableism" or caution taken when dealing with the set of content under that term. Are we really going to argue that it might be good, in public discourse, to avoid terms like "retarded" or are we arguing that, while certain phrases that do indeed constitute something we might well call "ableism," some groups have gone beyond the realm of rationality and started over-emphasizing what we used to call "political correctness?"


                If it's the latter, I don't think there's an argument: some people absolutely overreach. We can note that they do so but we shouldn't generalize out beyond what's rational. If it's the former, I don't think there's an argument, either: telling educators and public figures to try and avoid phrases that are properly construed as slurs in a modern or historical context isn't untoward.
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  But nothing in here supports your contention that there's a significant difference between content warnings on television and trigger warnings in published material.
                  And that was not my point in posting them. Try to keep up, since you were the one asking for more "representative" sources of 'ableist' triggers, such as from educators.

                  You even put two different parts of the Grand Valley State University guide together to make it appear as though "Ableism: a form of discrimination ..." is being used as a "trigger warning" when, in fact, that line appears in the glossary of terms.
                  Do you actually read? According to the guide "I feel so sorry for people with disabilities. It is such a tragedy" is a trigger; the glossary's "Ableism: A form of discrimination or social prejudice against people with disabilities" makes it clear that such a trigger is 'ableist'.

                  Now you seem to be contesting the mere existence of the term "ableism" or caution taken when dealing with the set of content under that term.
                  I looked for sources that talked about 'ableist' "triggers", as per your request. Academic syllabi with "ableism" alone would probably be at least ten times in number.

                  Are we really going to argue that it might be good, in public discourse, to avoid terms like "retarded" or are we arguing that, while certain phrases that do indeed constitute something we might well call "ableism," some groups have gone beyond the realm of rationality and started over-emphasizing what we used to call "political correctness?"
                  The latter, but not just the latter.

                  If it's the latter, I don't think there's an argument: some people absolutely overreach. We can note that they do so but we shouldn't generalize out beyond what's rational.
                  And where have I claimed that "everyone is doing this" or "most educators are doing this"?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    The difference between content warnings and trigger warnings is that content warnings are generally for protecting innocence while trigger warnings are for preventing maturity.

                    Comment

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