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  • #61
    Originally posted by phank View Post
    And here is the sort of brain-dead fanaticism we must deal with in the land of the free. An excellent illustration of why topics like this cannot be discussed rationally, or for that matter discussed at all.
    So what else would you call the mass killing of the unborn on the alter of convenience?

    Back to the OP, what we have is a California insurance regulation, and a carefully extracted, mindless drooling over-reaction on the part of some religious nitwit. The old saw "I disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it", in religious hands, morphs into "I disagree with what you say and I'll kill you if you say it again." Christian tolerance American style is fascinating to behold. So it's entertaining to see another Christian cleric demonstrating Christ's advice to turn the other cheek, American style.
    In other words, Phank hates religious liberty and thinks he has the right to strip people of their rights to disagree with him by forcing them to provide something they believe is the murder of innocents. The icing on the cake is your stupidity on actually knowing what 'turn the cheek' actually means. Guess your ignorance, stupidity, and hatred has taken control of your again. Gosh, do you really hate religion that much? How sad...

    It's no wonder that Americans in a recent poll voted about ten to one that Christ would be appalled if he returned today and saw the vicious intolerance practiced in his name.
    Or how he sees people supporting the murder of the unborn on the alter of convenience. Sorry Phank, but murder is murder, no matter how much you want to sugar coat it and pretend it isn't what it is, while calling everybody you disagree with a bunch of names.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      Jesus, being Jewish, would disagree with you. Halacha, i.e. Jewish law defines when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person), namely when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a 'partial life' and there are several circumstances when abortion is permitted - even mandated in certain limited situations.

      http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html


      "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
      Mark 7:8, NIV
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        With this sort of issue it helps to imagine how you would feel if men got pregnant. I doubt if you and star wars fan have that much imagination so don’t worry about it.
        Life is life, FF. If men got pregnant, I'd be just as vehemently pro-life.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          No, they just don’t count. Unless you are invited by the woman in question to give your opinion, women’s bodies are an issue between them and their doctors.
          But the fetus is not the woman's body, so your objection is a red herring.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            But the fetus is not the woman's body, so your objection is a red herring.
            And I think it is a rather dumb claim for FF to make to begin with. As though father's don't play and active part in the lives of their children. I've been on a Star Trek marathon for the past year in an attempt to watch every episode, ever made, in a year's time frame. That's mainly due to my dad's influence since that was one of my excuses to get to stay up late. What is the point of this? Well, fathers do play a role in the lives of their children too. It is just insanity to claim that father's can't have any opinion on the lives of their children. They are important...
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • #66
              Well with the wisdom of firstfloor and Tassman helping out here, I will leave. I have expressed my opinion so play with dumb and dumber.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Jesus didn't think much of the Halacha. Not that the article you linked to contradicts the pro-life position much.
                Nobody’s suggesting abortion on demand. Nevertheless:

                “In Judaism a foetus is not considered to be a person until it is born. Before that it is regarded as a part of the mother's body, although it does possess certain characteristics of a person and some status. During the first forty days after conception, it is considered 'mere fluid'.

                From an ethical point of view, then:

                • a foetus is not a person
                • but a foetus should nonetheless be protected to some extent because it is growing towards full personhood
                • so a foetus should not be destroyed or harmed except for very good reasons”.

                http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...ortion_1.shtml

                This would have been Jesus’ position, as a Jew. Thus, although abortion is not to be undertaken lightly, rigid objection in all instances would not have been Jesus’ position either.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  Life is life, FF. If men got pregnant, I'd be just as vehemently pro-life.
                  Maybe not you, but many people would claim to be pro-life while actually practicing the opposite when they think it is convenient for them. Consider the death penalty. We know that the justice system is imperfect and innocent people are sometimes convicted and put to death. While we might never know who these people are, we are willing to kill them for the sake of punishing the others. Is that ethical killing?

                  I would say that if you are pro-life you should also be against the death penalty and against conscription into the armed forces.

                  Clearly, the ethics of abortion are extremely complicated. It was legalised in the UK in 1967 because back street abortions were maiming and killing women. The logic is that if it’s going to happen anyway, it is better to bring it under proper medical supervision. If you ban abortion in clinics you are also promoting back street abortion and it is unethical to pretend to wash your hands of that consequence.

                  http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9407/myths.html

                  “a majority of Americans support and want access to legal abortions. Interestingly, 35.6% of the abortions performed in the U.S. involve evangelical Christian women.”
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Nobody’s suggesting abortion on demand. Nevertheless:

                    “In Judaism a foetus is not considered to be a person until it is born. Before that it is regarded as a part of the mother's body, although it does possess certain characteristics of a person and some status. During the first forty days after conception, it is considered 'mere fluid'.

                    From an ethical point of view, then:

                    • a foetus is not a person
                    • but a foetus should nonetheless be protected to some extent because it is growing towards full personhood
                    • so a foetus should not be destroyed or harmed except for very good reasons”.

                    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...ortion_1.shtml

                    This would have been Jesus’ position, as a Jew. Thus, although abortion is not to be undertaken lightly, rigid objection in all instances would not have been Jesus’ position either.
                    if this "Judaism" was Jesus' "position, as a Jew" , then why did Jesus call Judaism's rules "traditions" and accuse the Jewish leaders of transgressing the commandment of God by those traditions, (Matthew 15:1-6)

                    and if you think Jesus was simpatico with that Judaism 2,000 years ago, why did He call its leaders "hypocrites" and "serpents" and "vipers" and promise their generation "the damnation of hell" (Matthew 23:27-36)

                    and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" because He will deny knowing them, and shut the door on them and when they see the Kingdom of God they will be thrust out (Luke 13:22-28)

                    and His wrathful prophecy, that Judea will flee to the mountains, and they better pray its not winter and woe unto them that are with child or nursing when the judgment He promises comes (Matthew 24:16-20)

                    I don't think that was "Jesus' position, as a Jew"
                    Last edited by jordanriver; 11-12-2014, 02:53 AM.
                    To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      What a stupid comment.

                      Are you saying that fathers do not matter in the lives of their children?
                      No. Come on LPOT, I know your reading skills are a bit better than that.
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        Maybe not you, but many people would claim to be pro-life while actually practicing the opposite when they think it is convenient for them. Consider the death penalty. We know that the justice system is imperfect and innocent people are sometimes convicted and put to death. While we might never know who these people are, we are willing to kill them for the sake of punishing the others. Is that ethical killing?

                        I would say that if you are pro-life you should also be against the death penalty and against conscription into the armed forces.

                        Clearly, the ethics of abortion are extremely complicated. It was legalised in the UK in 1967 because back street abortions were maiming and killing women. The logic is that if it’s going to happen anyway, it is better to bring it under proper medical supervision. If you ban abortion in clinics you are also promoting back street abortion and it is unethical to pretend to wash your hands of that consequence.

                        http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9407/myths.html

                        “a majority of Americans support and want access to legal abortions. Interestingly, 35.6% of the abortions performed in the U.S. involve evangelical Christian women.”
                        so, are you anti capital punishment
                        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                          if this "Judaism" was Jesus' "position, as a Jew" , then why did Jesus call Judaism's rules "traditions" and accuse the Jewish leaders of transgressing the commandment of God by those traditions, (Matthew 15:1-6)

                          and if you think Jesus was simpatico with that Judaism 2,000 years ago, why did He call its leaders "hypocrites" and "serpents" and "vipers" and promise their generation "the damnation of hell" (Matthew 23:27-36)

                          and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" because He will deny knowing them, and shut the door on them and when they see the Kingdom of God they will be thrust out (Luke 13:22-28)

                          and His wrathful prophecy, that Judea will flee to the mountains, and they better pray its not winter and woe unto them that are with child or nursing when the judgment He promises comes (Matthew 24:16-20)

                          I don't think that was "Jesus' position, as a Jew"
                          Do you have reason to think that Jesus, as a Jew, would not have held a similar belief to the accepted Jewish view of the day regarding the status of a fetus - namely that it is not fully a ‘person’ until it is born? At no time does Jesus indicate otherwise.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            Do you have reason to think that Jesus, as a Jew, would not have held a similar belief to the accepted Jewish view of the day regarding the status of a fetus - namely that it is not fully a ‘person’ until it is born? At no time does Jesus indicate otherwise.
                            From what I have seen they probably debated about it as much as we do today, for example Talmud Sanhedrin 57b regarding Gentile destruction of an embryo:

                            Source: The Family, Medical Decision-Making, and Biotechnology

                            On the authority of R. Ishmael it was said: [He is executed] even for the murder of an embryo. -Source

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Do you have reason to think that Jesus, as a Jew, would not have held a similar belief to the accepted Jewish view of the day regarding the status of a fetus - namely that it is not fully a ‘person’ until it is born? At no time does Jesus indicate otherwise.
                              for goodness sakes

                              did you not get it?

                              Jesus REJECTED the "Jewish view of the day" PERIOD.


                              For Jesus it was ALL ABOUT SCRIPTURE, if you want to determine what is right or what is wrong.
                              To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                                From what I have seen they probably debated about it as much as we do today, for example Talmud Sanhedrin 57b regarding Gentile destruction of an embryo:

                                Source: The Family, Medical Decision-Making, and Biotechnology

                                On the authority of R. Ishmael it was said: [He is executed] even for the murder of an embryo. -Source

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                sounds more like what Jesus would accept, as it was based on Scripture (Genesis 9:6)
                                To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                                Comment

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