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Pastors Face Jail?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by phank View Post
    And here is the sort of brain-dead fanaticism we must deal with in the land of the free. An excellent illustration of why topics like this cannot be discussed rationally, or for that matter discussed at all.
    For those of us who are pro-lifers you know we believe that abortion is murder (the wrongful taking of a human life). It is therefore it is legitimate to describe a doctor who performs abortions as being a murderer. And if they perform lots of abortions then they do fit the definition of mass murderer.

    For the record, I don't think the murdering the murderer is right or justified.

    Originally posted by phank View Post
    Back to the OP, what we have is a California insurance regulation, and a carefully extracted, mindless drooling over-reaction on the part of some religious nitwit. The old saw "I disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it", in religious hands, morphs into "I disagree with what you say and I'll kill you if you say it again." Christian tolerance American style is fascinating to behold. So it's entertaining to see another Christian cleric demonstrating Christ's advice to turn the other cheek, American style.
    Umm, hate to point it out Phank, but you're the one with the gleam of fanaticism in your eye.

    The pastor in the OP is not advocating killing anyone, quite the opposite. And he is willing to go to jail rather than help fund the evil of abortion.

    Originally posted by phank View Post
    It's no wonder that Americans in a recent poll voted about ten to one that Christ would be appalled if he returned today and saw the vicious intolerance practiced in his name.
    And are you deluded enough that you think Christ would rather we were tolerant of those who slaughter innocents on the alters of convenience or that we would perform our duty to care for the helpless?
    "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
    -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
    1 Corinthians 16:13

    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
    -Ben Witherington III

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Raphael View Post
      For those of us who are pro-lifers you know we believe that abortion is murder (the wrongful taking of a human life). It is therefore it is legitimate to describe a doctor who performs abortions as being a murderer. And if they perform lots of abortions then they do fit the definition of mass murderer.
      Jesus, being Jewish, would disagree with you. Halacha, i.e. Jewish law defines when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person), namely when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a 'partial life' and there are several circumstances when abortion is permitted - even mandated in certain limited situations.

      http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Jesus, being Jewish, would disagree with you. Halacha, i.e. Jewish law defines when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person), namely when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a 'partial life' and there are several circumstances when abortion is permitted - even mandated in certain limited situations.

        http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html
        Jesus didn't think much of the Halacha. Not that the article you linked to contradicts the pro-life position much.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
          What you say would be nice if it were the case but you answered your own objection. How about this as a compromise. Churches should provide a record of their finances and should not be taxed on that proportion spent for the public good.
          In this country the Fair Tax would eliminate a lot of confusion here. I am not sure if Churches would be exempt or not. Churches still pay any other sales type tax.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by phank View Post
            And here is the sort of brain-dead fanaticism we must deal with in the land of the free. An excellent illustration of why topics like this cannot be discussed rationally, or for that matter discussed at all.
            In point of fact abortion is not health care, so an abortionist is not acting as a doctor regardless his qualifications.

            Originally posted by phank View Post
            Back to the OP, what we have is a California insurance regulation, and a carefully extracted, mindless drooling over-reaction on the part of some religious nitwit. The old saw "I disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it", in religious hands, morphs into "I disagree with what you say and I'll kill you if you say it again." Christian tolerance American style is fascinating to behold. So it's entertaining to see another Christian cleric demonstrating Christ's advice to turn the other cheek, American style.
            This would be funny if it were not so sad. It is liberals who take the kind of position you are claiming for the churches. I have yet to see a church threaten to kill over something someone said. It is not uncommon for a liberal to make such threats.

            Originally posted by phank View Post
            It's no wonder that Americans in a recent poll voted about ten to one that Christ would be appalled if he returned today and saw the vicious intolerance practiced in his name.
            Many, if not most, Christian churches are already appalled at what happens in some churches using His name, and what some church bodies claim in His name.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
              Jesus didn't think much of the Halacha. Not that the article you linked to contradicts the pro-life position much.
              Don't expect intelligent posts from Tassman.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                More loss of religious liberty!
                “I felt violated; I felt forced,” – Hibbs.
                No one is forcing Hibbs to have an abortion.
                And insurance is not abortion either.
                If you were really pro-life you would not have armed forces, armed police, contraception or the death penalty.
                What you pretend is pro-life is actually anti-feminist.
                And the Bible is not against abortion –
                http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sa.../abortion.html
                Womb business is women’s business.
                Last edited by firstfloor; 11-11-2014, 05:33 AM.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                  Shock! Horror! Organisation that receives tax breaks required to uphold the law!
                  So churches then should pay for abortions? Perhaps we should also force them to officiate homosexual weddings. You are a classic Stalinist pancreasman.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                    Similarly, in this case Seer is pointing out, it's a difficult issue. Yes, people ought to defy a law when they find it against their conscious. They should not however accept any government money as a matter of principle if the government has laws to which they object.
                    See how twisted your thinking is? It is NOT the government's money. It is our money, we earned it by our labor. And as a matter of fact, most, if not all, of the monies donated to churches was already taxed as income before we donated it.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      “I felt violated; I felt forced,” – Hibbs.
                      No one is forcing Hibbs to have an abortion.
                      And insurance is not abortion either.
                      If you were really pro-life you would not have armed forces, armed police, contraception or the death penalty.
                      What you pretend is pro-life is actually anti-feminist.
                      And the Bible is not against abortion –
                      http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sa.../abortion.html
                      Womb business is women’s business.
                      It is being coerced into supporting abortion.

                      It is the taking of innocent human life (and nobody could be more innocent).

                      Skepticskepticsannotatedbible? Well I see that you are reaching for the pinnacle of scholarship there.

                      Hoped this help

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        “I felt violated; I felt forced,” – Hibbs.
                        No one is forcing Hibbs to have an abortion.
                        And insurance is not abortion either.
                        If you were really pro-life you would not have armed forces, armed police, contraception or the death penalty.
                        What you pretend is pro-life is actually anti-feminist.
                        And the Bible is not against abortion –
                        http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sa.../abortion.html
                        Womb business is women’s business.
                        firstfloor, that website commits the LOGICAL FALLACY of Affirming the consequent.

                        It is saying if God orders the death of fetuses or children, then, therefore , the fetuses and children are not human or persons.

                        By that logic, non-Christians are not humans or persons.

                        Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

                        and do you suppose the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites (Deuteronomy 20:17) were all fetuses and children ?

                        ....as far as that goes, then even the adults of God's Chosen were not persons/humans either, since God had them killed by the Assyrians, then the Chaldeans, then the Romans...
                        Last edited by jordanriver; 11-11-2014, 07:10 AM.
                        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Jesus, being Jewish, would disagree with you. Halacha, i.e. Jewish law defines when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person), namely when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a 'partial life' and there are several circumstances when abortion is permitted - even mandated in certain limited situations.

                          http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html
                          Biblically it's at least when a fetus has its own blood/soul/nefesh long before birth:

                          Source: TORAH.ORG

                          The blood is the life essence of the animal and is the source of all its vitality and being that is passed by the heart to all the limbs muscles and sinew; the animals very nefesh. -Rabbi Tamari

                          eg: Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Last edited by JohnnyP; 11-11-2014, 07:02 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            It is being coerced into supporting abortion.
                            It is possible to draw causal connections between all sorts of things, say, between your vote and the judicial execution of an innocent man in a Texas prison. The fact that in this case the causal chain might be short is not grounds for refusing support of an insurance scheme. Nobody would hold the insurer or participants in the scheme responsible for any aspect of medical treatment which is a strictly private matter between a physician and his patient.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                              What you say would be nice if it were the case but you answered your own objection. How about this as a compromise. Churches should provide a record of their finances and should not be taxed on that proportion spent for the public good.
                              Churches aren't taxed because they're non-profit. There is no reason to charge non-profits since everything they do is for the public good. That's the point of a non-profit.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                “I felt violated; I felt forced,” – Hibbs.
                                No one is forcing Hibbs to have an abortion.
                                And insurance is not abortion either.
                                If you were really pro-life you would not have armed forces, armed police, contraception or the death penalty.
                                What you pretend is pro-life is actually anti-feminist.
                                And the Bible is not against abortion –
                                http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sa.../abortion.html
                                Womb business is women’s business.
                                Congratulations Tassman, you're not the dumbest person in this thread.
                                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                                Comment

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