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Pastors Face Jail?

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  • #16
    http://www.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/

    On the other hand, ADF's front page has several more on point articles...
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

    Quill Sword

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    • #17
      Shock! Horror! Organisation that receives tax breaks required to uphold the law!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        Why point out the non-Christians? I thought we were talking about Christians embarking on actively breaking the law.
        I was just responding to the implication I saw that the things you listed were Christian criminal actions. In the USA disobeying such a law will end up taking it into the courts for ruling, ultimately perhaps the Supreme Court. It is called civil disobedience. This does not include the sort of criminal behavior you listed. It is more a matter of choosing to obey Christ rather than Caesar.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
          Shock! Horror! Organisation that receives tax breaks required to uphold the law!
          Nonsense. Churches are tax-exempt - it isn't a 'tax break'. Constitutionally, the government cannot tax churches - simple as that. The IRS thing has never been tested in court - which is why with 1500 instances of civil disobedience and counting, the IRS hasn't made a single prosecution. The chances of it being upheld weren't good when they started it - getting worse as they go along...
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Nonsense. Churches are tax-exempt - it isn't a 'tax break'. Constitutionally, the government cannot tax churches - simple as that. The IRS thing has never been tested in court - which is why with 1500 instances of civil disobedience and counting, the IRS hasn't made a single prosecution. The chances of it being upheld weren't good when they started it - getting worse as they go along...
            It isn't nonsense just because you say it is. Personally, I think churches ought to be taxed. They benefit from the infrastructure of a civil society.

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            • #21
              Actually, this thing does bring up the wider issue of civil disobedience and freedom. We're having a debate in this country (Oz) about a section of our racial vilification laws:

              It is unlawful for a person to do an act, otherwise than in private, if:
              (a) the act is reasonably likely in all the circumstances to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or group of people, and
              (b) the act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or some or all of the people in the group.
              Now, our conservative government tried to change some of these provisions with our Attorney General famously saying 'People have a right to be bigots.' After considerable public furore, the changes were shelved.

              I really don't know where I stand here. It's a very grey area. OTOH, as a firm believer in as much free speech as possible, I think people ought to say whatever stupid and evil things they like and be ridiculed accordingly. OTOH, some groups in society (the disabled for example) ought to have the right to go peaceably about their business without being subjected to disgusting taunts. It's hard to know where to draw the line.

              Similarly, in this case Seer is pointing out, it's a difficult issue. Yes, people ought to defy a law when they find it against their conscious. They should not however accept any government money as a matter of principle if the government has laws to which they object.

              https://www.humanrights.gov.au/publi...-law-australia

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              • #22
                Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                It isn't nonsense just because you say it is. Personally, I think churches ought to be taxed. They benefit from the infrastructure of a civil society.
                The bulk of tax revenue comes from churches.
                The non-taxpaying segments of every community I've ever seen benefit from the church community segments
                To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  The answer is 'already have'. Abortion doctor murders, vandalists smashing cars, gluing together doors of abortion clinics, death threats, throwing bricks through windows... very unchristian behavior.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                    The bulk of tax revenue comes from churches.
                    The non-taxpaying segments of every community I've ever seen benefit from the church community segments
                    That's certainly true and a valid argument. But ... A collective, like a corporation, must still pay tax even though its shareholders pay their own tax.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Abortion doctor
                      There is no such thing as an abortion doctor, but I guess murdered mass murderers doesn't sound quite as sexy.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                        That's certainly true and a valid argument. But ... A collective, like a corporation, must still pay tax even though its shareholders pay their own tax.
                        yes, but don't forget, churches are (supposed to be) not for profit, whereas on the other hand, corporations are for profit.

                        A church building, IMHO, is supposed to be a meeting place where Christians get together to pool their resources, (AFTER those resources have already been taxed) for the purpose of evangelizing, (especially missions) and helping those in need.

                        of course , some churches appear to have become profitable businesses.
                        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                          yes, but don't forget, churches are (supposed to be) not for profit, whereas on the other hand, corporations are for profit.

                          A church building, IMHO, is supposed to be a meeting place where Christians get together to pool their resources, (AFTER those resources have already been taxed) for the purpose of evangelizing, (especially missions) and helping those in need.

                          of course , some churches appear to have become profitable businesses.
                          What you say would be nice if it were the case but you answered your own objection. How about this as a compromise. Churches should provide a record of their finances and should not be taxed on that proportion spent for the public good.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            There is no such thing as an abortion doctor, but I guess murdered mass murderers doesn't sound quite as sexy.
                            And here is the sort of brain-dead fanaticism we must deal with in the land of the free. An excellent illustration of why topics like this cannot be discussed rationally, or for that matter discussed at all.

                            Back to the OP, what we have is a California insurance regulation, and a carefully extracted, mindless drooling over-reaction on the part of some religious nitwit. The old saw "I disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it", in religious hands, morphs into "I disagree with what you say and I'll kill you if you say it again." Christian tolerance American style is fascinating to behold. So it's entertaining to see another Christian cleric demonstrating Christ's advice to turn the other cheek, American style.

                            It's no wonder that Americans in a recent poll voted about ten to one that Christ would be appalled if he returned today and saw the vicious intolerance practiced in his name.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                              What you say would be nice if it were the case but you answered your own objection. How about this as a compromise. Churches should provide a record of their finances and should not be taxed on that proportion spent for the public good.
                              that would work if they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

                              it might be unhelpful for some televangelists.
                              To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by phank View Post
                                And here is the sort of brain-dead fanaticism we must deal with in the land of the free. An excellent illustration of why topics like this cannot be discussed rationally, or for that matter discussed at all.

                                Back to the OP, what we have is a California insurance regulation, and a carefully extracted, mindless drooling over-reaction on the part of some religious nitwit. The old saw "I disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it", in religious hands, morphs into "I disagree with what you say and I'll kill you if you say it again." Christian tolerance American style is fascinating to behold. So it's entertaining to see another Christian cleric demonstrating Christ's advice to turn the other cheek, American style.

                                It's no wonder that Americans in a recent poll voted about ten to one that Christ would be appalled if he returned today and saw the vicious intolerance practiced in his name.
                                this is one of the reasons I lean to direct democracy.

                                I know how to vote, and if I am ignorant on some issues, I still don't need to pay someone else (Representative) who is also ignorant on some issues to do my voting for me.

                                I think politicians who don't really know how to administrate (as in making sure water and food and roads are safe, bridges don't collapse, planes don't fall out of the air and criminals don't roam the streets) are elected on the basis of whether they are prolife or prochoice, pro gay marriage or anti gay marriage, or pro legal pot or anti legal pot.
                                To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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