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The difference between harrassment and compliments.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    Natural Law? That's not within my belief system.
    Alright.

    I'll repeat my critique of the picture: the guidelines you posted in the form of the picture fails to cohere with the later criteria: complimenting someone on their hair or general beauty can be acting on lust, disturbing women, or objectifying them.
    So far only a hypothetical objection has been advanced.

    Or do you propose that all compliments on a stranger's hair, say, is necessarily not an action on lust?
    I never did that.

    You might want to correct your post.
    Okay, why?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      An interesting question in another thread was what exactly constituted the line between when men go over the line with women. Some people indicate that men just can't help it, and so should be excused almost no matter what they do (short of rape and grabbing), which is nonsense as men aren't animals. Others go in the opposite direction and say that even the mere saying 'hello' in a non-suggestive way is harrasment.

      Lets make it easy.

      Edited by a Moderator

      EDIT: DarthEx is not allowed to post in this thread.
      Thank you for posting about this. As I've repeatedly pointed out on that other thread, the difference between harassment and compliments isn't that hard to discern. Too bad a certain poster keeps being obtuse by absurdly complaining that women might consider literally anything to be harassment, while another poster keeps trying to dismiss the issues by asserting that the worse experiences of women around the world magically prevents us from being able to address this type of behavior.

      However, I do want to point out that in the picture, the boy who's telling the girl "you're beautiful" is holding her close and appears to be in a relationship with her. Do you consider it appropriate for complete strangers to say that to a woman on the street (although it'd probably be phrased as "Hey beautiful!")?
      Last edited by Jedidiah; 11-11-2014, 04:20 PM.
      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

      Comment


      • #48
        If one is asked to explain the distinction between:

        "You have a lovely smile" or "Nice hair"
        and

        "You've got a butt that won't quit!" or "Nice rack, darling!"
        It might indicate a bad-faith argument is about to ensue. At some point in the spectrum, yes, it probably gets into a grey area. It's simple enough to say that if you find yourself in said grey area, don't impose your intended compliment on someone who might not appreciate it. If the focus is "How far can I go in complimenting this person?" and not "How can I do my best to ensure this person leaves my presence at least no less happy than when she arrived?" then it's probably true that you've got the wrong focus.

        If the majority of women — or even very many women — say that street harassment is a problem for them, why not focus on how to do your best to avoid harassing someone? Why can't a compliment about a smile or hair wait for the 20-60 seconds it takes to first establish basic conversation and determine the other person's receptiveness to such compliments?
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Ok, what exactly is the difference between say you have nice hair or nice breasts? I mean they are both body parts.
          Compliments are ok as long as you don't mention body parts.

          urinal.jpg

          Comment


          • #50
            I think the aspect of harassment that makes it somewhat controversial is that it is in part subjective. That is, the exact same words can be considered either pleasant or harassment depending on how the person they are spoken to feels about them.

            'Wow, you look great" can be a nice compliment or sexual harassment, depending on context, how it's said (emphasis and tone), and on how the person it's addressed to feels about it.

            It's this last that makes claims of harassment something that certain people seem to use as a weapon...
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • #51
              I think several people (Leonhard, SP, PM) are trying to fit certain words (or phrases) into meaningless categories. You don't even seem to be sure what you're trying to argue, Leonhard (is it harassment verus compliment, lustful speech versus asexual speech, or what?). You guys aren't getting more 'support' on a Christian forum because you're executing your argument poorly, which means some of us don't really know what you're even trying to say.

              For instance, you've finally dispensed with the harassment angle, which is what I had a big problem with (in other words, an action can be inappropriate but that doesn't make it harassment..and I won't support your argument if you're claiming actions are harassment which I think aren't). Good, so there's some progress.

              But now your dichotomy seems to be: If the statement is made from a lustful viewpoint, it's wrong as well. I disagree with that, too. Suppose I see a beautiful woman I've never met before at church. I'm sexually attracted to her. I approach her and say hello. For what you seem to be saying here, that's still wrong because I have a lustful motivation. I just don't know that your attempt at categorization here is helpful at all, because men have have more than one goal or motivation. When I said "hello" to this fictional woman, I wasn't harassing her and I had no intention of objectifying her. But I was sexually attracted to her. I also think it's true that I wanted to get to know her, maybe date her, and if the cards fall right marry her. Let's be honest, if there was no sexual attraction I wouldn't be interested in pursuing all of this to begin with.

              We can all agree that harassment is inappropriate, though we may disagree on whether any given compliment is harassment. We can all agree that women should not be objectified, mistreated, or abused. So at this point, I fail to understand what all this discussion is even designed to accomplish. Does anyone care to clarify?
              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by myth View Post
                I think several people (Leonhard, SP, PM) are trying to fit certain words (or phrases) into meaningless categories.


                For instance, you've finally dispensed with the harassment angle, which is what I had a big problem with (in other words, an action can be inappropriate but that doesn't make it harassment..and I won't support your argument if you're claiming actions are harassment which I think aren't).
                I can't speak for Leonhard, but I do in fact agree with that angle. If you continually say or do something to a woman that genuinely makes her feel bothered or intimidated, you by definition are harassing her, even if you didn't intend to. Extreme analogy, but if a man has sex with a woman after thinking that she's given consent when the reality is that she's done no such thing, he's still committed rape, even if he didn't mean anything.

                But now your dichotomy seems to be: If the statement is made from a lustful viewpoint, it's wrong as well. I disagree with that, too. Suppose I see a beautiful woman I've never met before at church. I'm sexually attracted to her. I approach her and say hello. For what you seem to be saying here, that's still wrong because I have a lustful motivation. I just don't know that your attempt at categorization here is helpful at all, because men have have more than one goal or motivation. When I said "hello" to this fictional woman, I wasn't harassing her and I had no intention of objectifying her. But I was sexually attracted to her. I also think it's true that I wanted to get to know her, maybe date her, and if the cards fall right marry her. Let's be honest, if there was no sexual attraction I wouldn't be interested in pursuing all of this to begin with.
                Did you creepily plop yourself down right next to this woman who doesn't know you and say "Hey baby, you smell great. Nice hair," as per his hypothetical example?

                I'll have to wait for him to clarify, but it seemed clear to me that he meant it's inappropriate to approach a woman in a manner that indicates sexual attraction is the main focus.
                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by myth View Post
                  I think several people (Leonhard, SP, PM) are trying to fit certain words (or phrases) into meaningless categories.
                  Since I've always placed the phrases into contexts, this isn't really correct. And since I have never disagreed with Paprika that someone can use the sentence 'You have nice breasts' appropriately, how can you really claim this?

                  You don't even seem to be sure what you're trying to argue, Leonhard (is it harassment verus compliment, lustful speech versus asexual speech, or what?).
                  Specifically I was making some recommendations as to what is good behavior and what is bad behavior, because it seemed to me that some American Christians were starting to defend lewd talking to women as natural and good.

                  You guys aren't getting more 'support' on a Christian forum because you're executing your argument poorly, which means some of us don't really know what you're even trying to say.
                  At what point was I trying to make a technical formal argument? The OP was a helpful comic, only later when Paprika started arguing definitions did we get some sort of argument.

                  For instance, you've finally dispensed with the harassment angle,
                  Finally? Did it take long?

                  which is what I had a big problem with (in other words, an action can be inappropriate but that doesn't make it harassment..and I won't support your argument if you're claiming actions are harassment which I think aren't). Good, so there's some progress.
                  Very well.

                  But now your dichotomy seems to be: If the statement is made from a lustful viewpoint, it's wrong as well. I disagree with that, too.
                  I never said that its wrong solely because its lustful, I've pointed out other reasons as well.

                  Suppose I see a beautiful woman I've never met before at church. I'm sexually attracted to her. I approach her and say hello.
                  Did you go over to her and say "Hey, you've got really nice breasts!" And was that the first and only thing you said to her that day?

                  Let's be honest, if there was no sexual attraction I wouldn't be interested in pursuing all of this to begin with.
                  Lust isn't the same as sexual attraction, I think we'll both agree on that, but since this distinction can be made it doesn't mean that going around and going "Hey babe, nice rack." "Nice butt sweetie." "Hello there beautiful. *with raised suggestive eyebrows*" etc... ad nauseum...

                  We can all agree that women should not be objectified, mistreated, or abused. So at this point, I fail to understand what all this discussion is even designed to accomplish. Does anyone care to clarify?
                  It was simple meant to continue something I thought was an interesting question in the former thread. That thread was solely satisfied with discussing whether its wrong for a man to say 'hello' to a girl. Obviously that's most likely not wrong (and lets not reopen that discussion). However the discussion was left at that, and I wasn't sure what people thought about other behaviors. Instead of writing a long, boring post that nobody would read, I wrote a comic.

                  Hopefully seer was being sarcastic, otherwise there is a problem of how men talk to women in Christian communities that's worth talking about.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    Specifically I was making some recommendations as to what is good behavior and what is bad behavior, because it seemed to me that some American Christians were starting to defend lewd talking to women as natural and good.
                    Did this happen on Tweb, or are you referring to something else?
                    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      So far only a hypothetical objection has been advanced.

                      I never did that.

                      Can complimenting someone on their hair or general beauty be acting on lust, disturbing women, or objectifying them?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Leonhard
                        So far only a hypothetical objection has been advanced.

                        I never did that.
                        The quote edit makes it appear that I'm saying that I never advanced hypothetical objections, here's a proper quotation.

                        Originally posted by Leonhard
                        Originally posted by Paprika
                        I'll repeat my critique of the picture: the guidelines you posted in the form of the picture fails to cohere with the later criteria: complimenting someone on their hair or general beauty can be acting on lust, disturbing women, or objectifying them.
                        So far only a hypothetical objection has been advanced.

                        Originally posted by Paprika
                        Or do you propose that all compliments on a stranger's hair, say, is necessarily not an action on lust?
                        I never did that.
                        Last edited by Leonhard; 11-11-2014, 12:09 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post

                          Can complimenting someone on their hair or general beauty be acting on lust, disturbing women, or objectifying them?
                          Haven't I already outlined one situation where a comment like that can be used in such a way? It's very easy to draw up a situation where saying things like that sexually involved in a way that's unwelcome and unmanly.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                            Did this happen on Tweb, or are you referring to something else?
                            We have seer on this thread already giving indications of it, from this forum its more of a suspicion. From private conversations I know of several situations in which women in Christian circles are made to feel highly uncomfortable by mens advances, even from married men.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Haven't I already outlined one situation where a comment like that can be used in such a way? It's very easy to draw up a situation where saying things like that sexually involved in a way that's unwelcome and unmanly.
                              Hence your picture does not demarcate in any "clear" way what is good and what is not.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                Hence your picture does not demarcate in any "clear" way what is good and what is not.
                                I repost for you what I wrote in the OP.

                                "An interesting question in another thread was what exactly constituted the line between when men go over the line with women. Some people indicate that men just can't help it, and so should be excused almost no matter what they do (short of rape and grabbing), which is nonsense as men aren't animals. Others go in the opposite direction and say that even the mere saying 'hello' in a non-suggestive way is harassment.

                                Lets make it easy."

                                *I posted the picture*

                                A woman in that picture comments on a friends/customers hair, surely there's a clear difference between that, and a man approaching a woman on the street and going "Hey doll, nice hair!"

                                Comment

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