Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Churches Are Standing Up!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Churches Are Standing Up!

    For freedom of speech...

    A record number of rogue Christian pastors are endorsing candidates from the pulpit this election cycle, using Sunday sermons to defiantly flout tax rules.Their message to the IRS: Sue me.

    But the tax agency is doing anything but. Although the IRS was sued itself for not enforcing the law and admitted about 100 churches may be breaking the rules, the pastors and their critics alike say the agency is looking the other way. The agency refuses to say if it is acting.

    At the same time, the number of pastors endorsing candidates in what they call Pulpit Freedom Sunday jumped from 33 people in 2008 to more than 1,600 this year, according to organizers, Alliance Defending Freedom. And this year, they’ve stepped up their drive, telling pastors to back candidates any Sunday up until the election, not just one Sunday as in past years.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/1...#ixzz3I0kqiMCd
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Alternate thread title: Churches are proudly breaking the law!
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
      Alternate thread title: Churches are proudly breaking the law!
      Like when Martin Luther King Jr broke the law? Or recently when black pastors were arrested in Ferguson, Mo. I bet Boxing that you think those violations of the law were noble.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Like when Martin Luther King Jr broke the law? Or recently when black pastors were arrested in Ferguson, Mo. I bet Boxing that you think those violations of the law were noble.
        I disagree with the analogy. Obviously, not all lawbreaking is equal.

        Churches are already perfectly free to endorse or oppose any political candidates that they want. However, if a church wants to register for 501(c)(3) tax-exemptions, they need to follow the laws regarding 501(c)(3) tax-exemptions. Churches are attempting to have their cake and eat it, too, by desiring to keep their tax-exemption privileges without having to follow the rules which govern those privileges-- rules which all 501(c)(3)'s are required to follow, religious or otherwise.

        That's not about standing up for the church's freedom. That's about standing up for the church's bank account.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

        Comment


        • #5
          Several things....

          I think the tax advantages DO help Churches.

          If there were NO tax advantages, I'd still preach Jesus, Him crucified, buried and risen again.

          I think there are plenty of ways to preach the truth without purposely sticking your thumb in the eye of the IRS.

          I'm a rebel - I have been arrested before for taking a stand, but I did it simply to be rebellious.

          I have PLENTY to preach about without taking on mere mortals who are running for office.

          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
            I disagree with the analogy. Obviously, not all lawbreaking is equal.

            Churches are already perfectly free to endorse or oppose any political candidates that they want. However, if a church wants to register for 501(c)(3) tax-exemptions, they need to follow the laws regarding 501(c)(3) tax-exemptions. Churches are attempting to have their cake and eat it, too, by desiring to keep their tax-exemption privileges without having to follow the rules which govern those privileges.

            That's not about standing up for the church's freedom. That's about standing up for the church's bank account.
            Ok, so now all lawbreaking is not equal. And no, it is not about the church's bank account - you are ascribing motive. The fact is these tax-exempt laws are unjust. Churches should be free to preach what they feel is right - without fear. And taxation violates the church state separation - "the power to tax is the power to destroy."
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Ok, so now all lawbreaking is not equal. And no, it is not about the church's bank account - you are ascribing motive.
              It's hardly unreasonable to point out that the same laws which grant 501(c)(3)'s their tax exemption are the laws which restrict 501(c)(3)'s from endorsing or opposing specific political candidates; and that churches oppose the restriction while desiring to keep the privilege.

              The fact is these tax-exempt laws are unjust. Churches should be free to preach what they feel is right - without fear. And taxation violates the church state separation - "the power to tax is the power to destroy."
              I disagree that taxation, in principle, violates either the Establishment or the Free Exercise clauses of the Constitution. Asking that a church pay the same income taxes or property taxes as any other corporation does no more to violate the First Amendment than requiring churches to acquire building permits or legal deeds for their land.

              If churches want the privileges of being a 501(c)(3), they need to follow the laws of being a 501(c)(3). If they think that the laws governing 501(c)(3)'s are unjust, they shouldn't pretend like this is an issue of religious discrimination, because there are non-religious 501(c)(3)'s equally affected by that perceived injustice.
              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                It's hardly unreasonable to point out that the same laws which grant 501(c)(3)'s their tax exemption are the laws which restrict 501(c)(3)'s from endorsing or opposing specific political candidates; and that churches oppose the restriction while desiring to keep the privilege.
                Well laws that curb freedom of speech are simply unjust - do you agree?

                I disagree that taxation, in principle, violates either the Establishment or the Free Exercise clauses of the Constitution. Asking that a church pay the same income taxes or property taxes as any other corporation does no more to violate the First Amendment than requiring churches to acquire building permits or legal deeds for their land.
                Well I disagree with you especially on the Federal Level. The power to tax is the power to control. The more churches have to fork over to any government entity the less resources they have to further their prime mission (whatever they conceive that mission to be).
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think its unfortunate that pastors feel the need to publicly endorse political candidates at the pulpit. Didn't Jesus say that his kingdom was not of this world? It seems to me that rather than attempting to treat the symptoms of a broken world system from the pulpit by directing your followers who to vote for, a lot more could be accomplished by concentrating on the origins of the symptoms, which are spiritual. Instead of directing congregations who to vote for, it seems wiser to share and expound upon what the scriptures have to say about whatever social issues seem important, and let the people being preached to come to their own conclusions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    For freedom of speech...
                    If they are breaking the law they are Liars for Jesus for claiming that they are a 501(c)(3) organisation when they are not. This is also advertising the moral corruption of Jesus idolatry.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      I think its unfortunate that pastors feel the need to publicly endorse political candidates at the pulpit. Didn't Jesus say that his kingdom was not of this world? It seems to me that rather than attempting to treat the symptoms of a broken world system from the pulpit by directing your followers who to vote for, a lot more could be accomplished by concentrating on the origins of the symptoms, which are spiritual. Instead of directing congregations who to vote for, it seems wiser to share and expound upon what the scriptures have to say about whatever social issues seem important, and let the people being preached to come to their own conclusions.
                      I have no problem with this, it is the idea of government control, on any level, when it comes to church business.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Well laws that curb freedom of speech are simply unjust - do you agree?
                        I would disagree with the idea that 501(c)(3) rules do curb freedom of speech. If an organization voluntarily subjects itself to a set of rules which restrict that organizations actions, there has been no imposition upon that organizations freedom to speech.

                        Well I disagree with you especially on the Federal Level. The power to tax is the power to control. The more churches have to fork over to any government entity the less resources they have to further their prime mission (whatever they conceive that mission to be).
                        Then, by rights, you should oppose all taxation. After all, the more anyone has to fork over to any government entity, the less resources he will have to further his religious expression.
                        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I have no problem with this, it is the idea of government control, on any level, when it comes to church business.
                          What is "church business"?
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            If they are breaking the law they are Liars for Jesus for claiming that they are a 501(c)(3) organisation when they are not. This is also advertising the moral corruption of Jesus idolatry.
                            No they are not lying. They are practicing freedom of speech. I know you don't like that FF.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              What is "church business"?
                              Whatever they decide. Preaching the gospel, getting involved in the political process, feeding the poor, etc...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by rogue06, Yesterday, 08:34 PM
                              1 response
                              20 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Ronson
                              by Ronson
                               
                              Started by LiconaFan97, Yesterday, 07:31 PM
                              1 response
                              25 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by Bill the Cat, Yesterday, 02:47 PM
                              27 responses
                              111 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by Thoughtful Monk, Yesterday, 10:59 AM
                              30 responses
                              136 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Starlight  
                              Started by Ronson, 11-21-2020, 09:47 PM
                              46 responses
                              299 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Working...
                              X