It's Confirmed, Men Are Pigs!

[Psychic Missile]

In other words, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and keep showing it. I'm sorry PM, but I tend to rather enjoy the fact that my husband finds me pretty and most of my girl friends rather enjoy the compliments from their other half too. Besides, it isn't as though it is totally one sided. Do you really think women don't find some men attractive too and don't talk to men we find attractive? Thing is though, how do you decided if somebody is more than a 'pretty face' if you don't actually know something about them (such as seeing how friendly they are by a common greeting)?

Saying hi to people walking by on a city sidewalk is not a good way to go about getting to know them.

[lilpixieofterror]

I don't like it much either, but for different reasons.

Because you have a stick shoved up your you know what and don't like being address by the peasants that you find among you?

Because it's rude.

Another assertion. Asserted, not shown.

Because it bothers someone.

Yep, it is so bothersome when those peasants try to address their masters, isn't it?

Because of systemic sexism and the objectification of women.

Yep because my husband finding me both beautiful and smart is sexism and his way of objectifying me.

Saying hello if you want to greet someone or get to know them is great. I have no issue with that.

More assertions, no actual good reason behind what you said. Do tell me, what is more the 'objectification of women':

1. A man sees a beautiful women and decides he wants to say hello to her and see a bit of what she's like.
2. A man sees a beautiful women and decides she looks pretty and decides to stare.

One is getting to know her, the other is seeing her as an object. Ironically, you seem to be wanting men to do number 2 vs number 1. I would think getting to know beyond her physical appearance is far better than admiring her as some sort of object. Yep the modern feminist movement... turning women into objects to admire for years now. Funny thing is that my husband decided to do the first thing. I wasn't aware he was a sexist. I'll be sure to let him know about that (he could use a little bit of a laugh tonight).

[lilpixieofterror]

Saying hi to people walking by on a city sidewalk is not a good way to go about getting to know them.

And you know that, for a fact. What, you've never shared a random conversations with somebody around you? You must live a pretty sad and boring life...

[Darth Executor]

Women in our society are reduced to sexual or aesthetic objects.

No they're not.

Focusing on sexual or aesthetic qualities in an inappropriate context, in this case a neutral context, promotes that reduction.

Umm, we were talking about saying "hello" to somebody. Are you claiming men should never say hello to women they find attractive and would like to meet?

[Darth Executor]

Saying hi to people walking by on a city sidewalk is not a good way to go about getting to know them.

If you don't know them it's the only chance you have.

[Sam]

Sam, I meant articulation in the sense of describing the totality of your perspective. Later on (as now) when your comments were more expansive I had a better understanding of your thinking. But here's why I was a little confused. PM stated that saying hello is harassment when he strung these sentences together:



Then you responded (on the same page) by stating that neither you nor PM had said any such thing:





I have noticed a difference between North and South, and that's why I made my first comment in the thread. But I am interested in your perspective, which I hadn't given much thought, about why women would appear so aloof in public places. Even so, that doesn't have much bearing on the motive behind simply saying hello, which is what I think some of us from the South are arguing. I do agree that if women live in an environment that they have to act like this (routinely) in public then we do have more work to do as a society.



You admitted to Zymologist that you understood why the clarification was needed. So, I hope you don't think I was reading from a different perspective and glossing over details. I do (usually) pay attention. ;)

OK; we'll clear the slate and start fresh. For what it's worth, I understand Psychic Missile to be arguing something different than what's been attributed. PM appears to me to be arguing that the "greetings" folks are referring to as genuine are selective and targeted to grab a woman's attention and, from my experience in places like Chicago and NYC, I agree — anything more than a very simple "hello" in locations like that is often enough a pretext for a solicitation. We could say that the probability is pretty high that many of those kind of greetings are, in fact, a prelude to catcalling and harassment, if not explicitly catcalling or harassment. I imagine that we'll find a pretty good correlation between big-city culture finding it impolite to try and start unsolicited conversations with people walking by without even making eye contact. Even in this part of the Midwest, it's pretty much established that a conversation between strangers should start with eye contact unless there's a specific need. So if a greeting is a pretext for a subsequent catcall or solicitation, it does fall under the banner of harassment. And I imagine that folks in NYC are going to see far more such "fake" greetings and therefore will not irrationally tend to put all or most unsolicited street greetings into that category.

I don't think anyone is talking about situations where a person is standing around, hanging out, or mingling in a room, to be clear: the type of interaction we're talking about is walking through a public place, usually a street, without indicating that you seek to engage others.

Jessica Williams of "The Daily Show" did a segment on this topic that bears watching (though, being "The Daily Show," there are a few obscenities.

[lilpixieofterror]

Umm, we were talking about saying "hello" to somebody. Are you claiming men should never say hello to women they find attractive and would like to meet?

Don't you know how it works DE:

1. Staring at women = no objectification of women.
2. Asking women how they are doing because you find them attractive = objectification of women.

Of course, I would think that staring at somebody for their physical appearance vs trying to know them beyond their physical appearance would be more objectification, but hey... this is is PM we're talking about. Modern feminism, turning woman into objects for men to stare at the world over.

[Darth Executor]

This new brand of liberal purtanism really is hilarious. PMS could give the Taliban a run for their money.

[Psychic Missile]

Do tell me, what is more the 'objectification of women':

1. A man sees a beautiful women and decides he wants to say hello to her and see a bit of what she's like.
2. A man sees a beautiful women and decides she looks pretty and decides to stare.

One is getting to know her, the other is seeing her as an object. Ironically, you seem to be wanting men to do number 2 vs number 1. I would think getting to know beyond her physical appearance is far better than admiring her as some sort of object. Yep the modern feminist movement... turning women into objects to admire for years now. Funny thing is that my husband decided to do the first thing. I wasn't aware he was a sexist. I'll be sure to let him know about that (he could use a little bit of a laugh tonight).

If you think that the men in the video were taking the route of your item 1, I think you are misreading their intentions.

And you know that, for a fact. What, you've never shared a random conversations with somebody around you? You must live a pretty sad and boring life...

It's be better to strike up a conversation when someone isn't on their way to somewhere else. In line, in a store, in an elevator, almost anywhere else!

[lilpixieofterror]

If you think that the men in the video were taking the route of your item 1, I think you are misreading their intentions.

I have no idea what their intentions are because I haven't been issued my standard mind reading pills and automatically know what they are thinking about and thinking of doing. Have you been issued your standard mind reading pills and automatically know the intentions of those men? Please, tell me where you got your mind reading pills from because I sure didn't get mine in the mail yet...

It's be better to strike up a conversation when someone isn't on their way to somewhere else. In line, in a store, in an elevator, almost anywhere else!

But you said it was rude to say hello to people who are your betters and know you're saying it isn't... can you produce some kind of a guide of when it is ok to say hello to somebody and when it isn't?

[Psychic Missile]

No they're not.

I think you need to expand your horizons.

Umm, we were talking about saying "hello" to somebody. Are you claiming men should never say hello to women they find attractive and would like to meet?

Let's consider the possibilities:

1) These men all wanted to meet this woman. They are all fools who think people walking by on a city sidewalk will stop and have a conversation.

2) These men found this women attractive. They are saying hello as a cat call, just like the other men in the video who chose different words.

If you don't know them it's the only chance you have.

Maybe some people need to learn the word "now is not the time".

[lilpixieofterror]

Let's consider the possibilities:

1) These men all wanted to meet this woman. They are all fools who think people walking by on a city sidewalk will stop and have a conversation.

2) These men found this women attractive. They are saying hello as a cat call, just like the other men in the video who chose different words.

I do love a good either/or fallacy.

Maybe some people need to learn the word "now is not the time".

Or some people need to get a stick out of their rear end. So where did you get your mind reading pills from? Mine haven't come in yet. Did your order yours though Acme or Rogue Tech?

[Psychic Missile]

I have no idea what their intentions are because I haven't been issued my standard mind reading pills and automatically know what they are thinking about and thinking of doing. Have you been issued your standard mind reading pills and automatically know the intentions of those men? Please, tell me where you got your mind reading pills from because I sure didn't get mine in the mail yet...

I have my mind reading pills. They are called Iknowwhatnewyorkcultureislikeandalsoicanreadsocial situationscylic acid.

But you said it was rude to say hello to people who are your betters and know you're saying it isn't... can you produce some kind of a guide of when it is ok to say hello to somebody and when it isn't?

What are you talking about? Who's talking about people's betters?

Here is a guide to saying hello: Don't say hello to women walking by as an expression of your attraction to her aka a cat call.

[lilpixieofterror]

I have my mind reading pills. They are called Iknowwhatnewyorkcultureislikeandalsoicanreadsocial situationscylic acid.

In other words...

"I'm going to pretend I can read minds because I don't actually have an argument to speak of".

What are you talking about? Who's talking about people's betters?

It's called a joke. IE how you are whining that people dare waste your time by addressing you when you walk by. How dare they do that! Peasants should know better than to address their betters.

Here is a guide to saying hello: Don't say hello to women walking by as an expression of your attraction to her aka a cat call.

So my husband is a sexist, eh? I'll be sure to let him know that...

[Psychic Missile]

In other words...

"I'm going to pretend I can read minds because I don't actually have an argument to speak of".

So you don't know that they were being friendly. For all you know they were being rude. You don't have mind reading pills.