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Is the ACLU "fair"?

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  • Is the ACLU "fair"?

    Yeah, I know, it might seem like a silly question, and I SUSPECT that the cases they accept where they represent "conservatives" under attack are "token", but I could be way off, and am willing to be proven so.

    So, I'm going on the assumption that they pretty much represent liberal organizations, but I have heard, from time to time, statements to the effect "no, they represent everybody equally".

    If you're in agreement with the latter part of that statement, here's your opportunity to "show me the beef".




    Note: Absolutely NO misogynist or racist comments!
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yeah, I know, it might seem like a silly question, and I SUSPECT that the cases they accept where they represent "conservatives" under attack are "token", but I could be way off, and am willing to be proven so.
    Could be way off? The prosecution calls rogue as its first witness.

    So, I'm going on the assumption that they pretty much represent liberal organizations, but I have heard, from time to time, statements to the effect "no, they represent everybody equally".

    If you're in agreement with the latter part of that statement, here's your opportunity to "show me the beef".



    Note: Absolutely NO misogynist or racist comments!
    Your yardstick is the wrong yardstick. It's not about whether they defend liberals and conservatives equally, it's about whether they defend first amendment rights consistently. Do you still have a right to free speech and peaceful assembly even if you're a Nazi, and want to march through Skokie? Or are those rights reserved just for folks who pass some arbitrary "you're on my side" litmus test.

    They're not fair. They're principled.

    I'm a member.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
      Your yardstick is the wrong yardstick. It's not about whether they defend liberals and conservatives equally, it's about whether they defend first amendment rights consistently.
      And the assumption is they are more apt to do this where liberals are concerned.

      Do you still have a right to free speech and peaceful assembly even if you're a Nazi, and want to march through Skokie?
      Absolutely, and as a police officer, I had to stand the line to defend them AND the gay rights people.

      Or are those rights reserved just for folks who pass some arbitrary "you're on my side" litmus test.

      They're not fair. They're principled.
      Show some significant cases where they were principled enough to defend the free speech of conservatives, please.

      I'm a member.
      I an shocked. SHOCKED, I say.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        I had heard that there were cases where the ACLU was arguing both sides! Sometimes basic rights do come into conflict with one another.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by phank View Post
          I had heard that there were cases where the ACLU was arguing both sides! Sometimes basic rights do come into conflict with one another.
          Examples, please.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Show some significant cases where they were principled enough to defend the free speech of conservatives, please.
            Perhaps not exactly what you are looking for, but:

            http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/

            On the other hand, Conservapedia says the ACLU rarely defends Christian speech! We seem to have a perception problem here.
            Last edited by phank; 10-17-2014, 03:44 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by phank View Post
              Perhaps not exactly what you are looking for, but:

              http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/
              That's much closer than what Jesse "offered".

              Some of those I immediately recognize as African-American entities, but I'll see if I can spot any where it's clearly a "defending conservatives, too" situation.

              Thanks

              ETA:
              Ah, OK.... the site you linked to has hyperlinks, so that makes it a lot easier.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                That's much closer than what Jesse "offered".

                Some of those I immediately recognize as African-American entities, but I'll see if I can spot any where it's clearly a "defending conservatives, too" situation.

                Thanks

                ETA:
                Ah, OK.... the site you linked to has hyperlinks, so that makes it a lot easier.
                Here are a bunch more:

                https://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-re...and-expression

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by phank View Post
                  Thanks --- yes, that's in the right direction.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think the real problem is not disparate cases, but the distorted way they interpret the so called "separation of church and state." That is where the lack of fairness and the lack of principle shows through. They approach from far too close to the Freedom From Religion stance.
                    Last edited by Jedidiah; 10-17-2014, 08:15 PM.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      That's much closer than what Jesse "offered".
                      He beat me to it. I was looking for the case where they supported Bob Enyart, which has a special resonance around here for those of us who came from The Other Location.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                        He beat me to it. I was looking for the case where they supported Bob Enyart, which has a special resonance around here for those of us who came from The Other Location.
                        Well, I was expecting at least a handful of 'token' defenses, and was pleasantly surprised to see there are some cases that appear to be quite legit. I'm still working through them, and quite a few of them are 404 errors or "web page not found", but it's probably an old list and broken links are not uncommon. I'm actually trying to find some of the newer cases, because I just read of a pretty hot debate from WITHIN ACLU concerning 1st amendment relating to campaign finance reform. This appears to be a hot debate between the "older established" members and the "up and comers".
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I view the ACLU as rather inconsistent. Although I am pretty liberal on Second Amendment issues and would tend to agree with them on that, they have seemed a bit disingenuous on that issue. For years, they said they refused to touch Second Amendment cases because the Supreme Court ruled a certain way and had for decades. When DC v. Heller came around, they suddenly said that the Supreme Court was wrong - betraying that it was really about their personal opinion all along and not about what the Supreme Court think. They would be better off they just said "we focus on X, Y, and Z amendments".
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It looks like those cases are listed most recent first - most recent being 2010, then about the fifth link down, there are several "page not found", then they go to 1999.

                            aclu page not found.jpg
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                              Could be way off? The prosecution calls rogue as its first witness.


                              I get to be a prosecution witness rather than the defendant.


                              The Skokie case was also the one that immediately popped into mind where they weren't defending the liberal position. But one thing that has always troubled me about the ACLU (okay, not the only thing but that's an issue for another day), for a group that is supposed to defend citizen's Constitutional rights that have been strangely silent about the Second Amendment. Perhaps nobody told them that it guarantees rights that need protecting as well.

                              ETA: I see KG has already touched upon the 2A issue. Ninja'd by a cheesy chess move
                              Last edited by rogue06; 10-17-2014, 05:19 PM.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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