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Is the ACLU "fair"?

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  • Is the ACLU "fair"?

    Yeah, I know, it might seem like a silly question, and I SUSPECT that the cases they accept where they represent "conservatives" under attack are "token", but I could be way off, and am willing to be proven so.

    So, I'm going on the assumption that they pretty much represent liberal organizations, but I have heard, from time to time, statements to the effect "no, they represent everybody equally".

    If you're in agreement with the latter part of that statement, here's your opportunity to "show me the beef".




    Note: Absolutely NO misogynist or racist comments!
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  • #2
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yeah, I know, it might seem like a silly question, and I SUSPECT that the cases they accept where they represent "conservatives" under attack are "token", but I could be way off, and am willing to be proven so.
    Could be way off? The prosecution calls rogue as its first witness.

    So, I'm going on the assumption that they pretty much represent liberal organizations, but I have heard, from time to time, statements to the effect "no, they represent everybody equally".

    If you're in agreement with the latter part of that statement, here's your opportunity to "show me the beef".



    Note: Absolutely NO misogynist or racist comments!
    Your yardstick is the wrong yardstick. It's not about whether they defend liberals and conservatives equally, it's about whether they defend first amendment rights consistently. Do you still have a right to free speech and peaceful assembly even if you're a Nazi, and want to march through Skokie? Or are those rights reserved just for folks who pass some arbitrary "you're on my side" litmus test.

    They're not fair. They're principled.

    I'm a member.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
      Your yardstick is the wrong yardstick. It's not about whether they defend liberals and conservatives equally, it's about whether they defend first amendment rights consistently.
      And the assumption is they are more apt to do this where liberals are concerned.

      Do you still have a right to free speech and peaceful assembly even if you're a Nazi, and want to march through Skokie?
      Absolutely, and as a police officer, I had to stand the line to defend them AND the gay rights people.

      Or are those rights reserved just for folks who pass some arbitrary "you're on my side" litmus test.

      They're not fair. They're principled.
      Show some significant cases where they were principled enough to defend the free speech of conservatives, please.

      I'm a member.
      I an shocked. SHOCKED, I say.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        I had heard that there were cases where the ACLU was arguing both sides! Sometimes basic rights do come into conflict with one another.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by phank View Post
          I had heard that there were cases where the ACLU was arguing both sides! Sometimes basic rights do come into conflict with one another.
          Examples, please.
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Show some significant cases where they were principled enough to defend the free speech of conservatives, please.
            Perhaps not exactly what you are looking for, but:

            http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/

            THE ACLU FIGHTS FOR CHRISTIANS

            The ACLU fights just as hard for INDIVIDUAL free exercise of religion as the ACLU fights against GOVERNMENT endorsement, sponsorship, or establishment of religion. Despite this fact, many people spread misinformation about the ACLU around the internet, innocently and maliciously, falsely claiming the ACLU is anti-religion or anti-Christian.

            This list of FACTS counteracts that misinformation. These links represent just a few of the many examples of the ACLU defending the free speech and free exercise rights of Christians (for purposes of this list, the word “Christian” means a person who self-identifies as “Christian”).

            In every example, the ACLU is defending the right of a Christian to speak as a Christian or to practice Christianity.

            Here is the current version of this EVER GROWING list:

            ACLU of Colorado Supports Students Wearing Christian Symbols in the Colorado Springs School District

            ACLU-NJ Defends Christian Student's Anti-Abortion Speech

            ACLU of Tennessee Defends Christian Students' Right to Preach in Public Park

            ACLU of Virginia Defends Christian Students' Right to Protest Against ACLU at Public School

            ACLU Defends Christian Students Wearing Anti-Islam Shirts to Florida Public School

            ACLU Fights For Christian Inmate's Right to Preach

            ACLU of Northern California Fights Law that Got Quakers Fired Over Loyalty Oath

            ACLU Defends Christian Librarian Disciplined for Refusing to Promote Harry Potter

            ACLU Defends Right of Individual Christian to Display Nativity Scene on Public Property

            ACLU Defends Christians Protesting Gay Rights in Florida

            ACLU Champions Religious Freedom Of Mormon College Student

            ACLU Fights for Christian Church's Mission to Feed the Poor

            ACLU Fights for Christmas Tree

            ACLU Files Suit to Protect Free Speech Rights of Christian Protesting Wal-Mart's Policy on Gays

            ACLU of Georgia and Baptist Church File Religious Discrimination Lawsuit

            ACLU of Rhode Island Files Appeal on Behalf of Christian Prisoner Barred from Preaching at Religious Services

            ACLU of Michigan Defends Catholic Man Coerced to Convert to Pentecostal Faith in Drug Rehab Program

            ACLU of New Jersey Joins Lawsuit Supporting Second-Grader's Right to Sing "Awesome God" at Talent Show

            After ACLU Intervention on Behalf of Christian Valedictorian, Michigan High School Agrees to Stop Censoring Religious Yearbook Entries

            ACLU Helps Free New Mexico Street Preacher From Prison

            ACLU of WA Wins Right of Christian Minister to Preach in Spokane Plaza

            ACLU Fights for Baptist Preacher in Illinois

            ACLU Defends Rights of Christian Group to Make Religious Protest at Funerals

            ACLU Backs Christian Abortion Protester in Ohio

            ACLU of Oregon Defends Religious Liberty Of Adventist School Boys Basketball Players

            ACLU Backs Missouri Nurse Penalized for Wearing Cross-Shaped Lapel Pin

            ACLU Defends Christian Street Preacher in Las Vegas

            ACLU Argues for Legal Recognition of Small Christian Church

            ACLU of MA Defends Students Punished for Distributing Candy Canes with Religious Messages

            ACLU of Nebraska Defends Church Facing Eviction by the City of Lincoln

            ACLU Defends Church's Right to Run "Anti-Santa" Ads in Boston Subways

            ACLU Defends Inmate's Access to Material from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

            Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks

            ACLU Defends Families Fighting Removal Of Religious Symbols from Florida Cemetery

            ACLU Supports Right of Iowa Students to Distribute Christian Literature at School

            ACLU Argument In Support of the Display of a Christian Cross in a Public Forum

            ACLU Defends Christian Worker Required to Remove Bible from Desk at Government Job

            ACLU Defends Free Speech Rights of Christians And Others On Main Street Plaza

            ACLU Defends Prisoner's Rosary Beads

            ACLU Defends Christian Group's Anti-Abortion Ads On Phoenix Buses

            ACLU Pledges to Back Church in a Zoning Battle

            ACLU of PA Files Discrimination Lawsuit Over Denial of Zoning Permit for African American Baptist Church

            ACLU Offers To Represent Private Prayer on Public Property and

            ACLU Joins Falwell To Fight For Church Incorporation Rights
            On the other hand, Conservapedia says the ACLU rarely defends Christian speech! We seem to have a perception problem here.
            Last edited by phank; 10-17-2014, 04:44 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by phank View Post
              Perhaps not exactly what you are looking for, but:

              http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/
              That's much closer than what Jesse "offered".

              Some of those I immediately recognize as African-American entities, but I'll see if I can spot any where it's clearly a "defending conservatives, too" situation.

              Thanks

              ETA:
              Ah, OK.... the site you linked to has hyperlinks, so that makes it a lot easier.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                That's much closer than what Jesse "offered".

                Some of those I immediately recognize as African-American entities, but I'll see if I can spot any where it's clearly a "defending conservatives, too" situation.

                Thanks

                ETA:
                Ah, OK.... the site you linked to has hyperlinks, so that makes it a lot easier.
                Here are a bunch more:

                https://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-re...and-expression

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by phank View Post
                  Thanks --- yes, that's in the right direction.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think the real problem is not disparate cases, but the distorted way they interpret the so called "separation of church and state." That is where the lack of fairness and the lack of principle shows through. They approach from far too close to the Freedom From Religion stance.
                    Last edited by Jedidiah; 10-17-2014, 09:15 PM.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      That's much closer than what Jesse "offered".
                      He beat me to it. I was looking for the case where they supported Bob Enyart, which has a special resonance around here for those of us who came from The Other Location.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                        He beat me to it. I was looking for the case where they supported Bob Enyart, which has a special resonance around here for those of us who came from The Other Location.
                        Well, I was expecting at least a handful of 'token' defenses, and was pleasantly surprised to see there are some cases that appear to be quite legit. I'm still working through them, and quite a few of them are 404 errors or "web page not found", but it's probably an old list and broken links are not uncommon. I'm actually trying to find some of the newer cases, because I just read of a pretty hot debate from WITHIN ACLU concerning 1st amendment relating to campaign finance reform. This appears to be a hot debate between the "older established" members and the "up and comers".
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I view the ACLU as rather inconsistent. Although I am pretty liberal on Second Amendment issues and would tend to agree with them on that, they have seemed a bit disingenuous on that issue. For years, they said they refused to touch Second Amendment cases because the Supreme Court ruled a certain way and had for decades. When DC v. Heller came around, they suddenly said that the Supreme Court was wrong - betraying that it was really about their personal opinion all along and not about what the Supreme Court think. They would be better off they just said "we focus on X, Y, and Z amendments".
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It looks like those cases are listed most recent first - most recent being 2010, then about the fifth link down, there are several "page not found", then they go to 1999.

                            aclu page not found.jpg
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                              Could be way off? The prosecution calls rogue as its first witness.


                              I get to be a prosecution witness rather than the defendant.


                              The Skokie case was also the one that immediately popped into mind where they weren't defending the liberal position. But one thing that has always troubled me about the ACLU (okay, not the only thing but that's an issue for another day), for a group that is supposed to defend citizen's Constitutional rights that have been strangely silent about the Second Amendment. Perhaps nobody told them that it guarantees rights that need protecting as well.

                              ETA: I see KG has already touched upon the 2A issue. Ninja'd by a cheesy chess move
                              Last edited by rogue06; 10-17-2014, 06:19 PM.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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