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  • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
    I understand that you are saying you oppose forcing businesses to serve people they don't want to because it is a type of slavery. I have never heard of members of the armed forces surrendering their rights, and I can not conceive of how this is permitted by the Constitution. I can understand minor limitations on rights because of a contract, like with an NDA or UCMJ rules regarding disloyal statements in uniform. However, if those are reasonable, then I don't see why a contract between business and government that concerns taxes, health, and environmental regulations cannot also contain a rule on who should not be denied service based on membership to a certain class. I don't see the difference. I'm not interested in arguing against you. You seem pretty sure of yourself and I think we've spoken on this issue before. I'm interested in learning more about your opinion so as to better understand opinions unlike my own.
    Really? Do you have freedom of speech in the Military? Have you ever been in the military? And it is one thing for the Government to impose certain regulations to protect the environment or to have a safe work place and another to force one man to serve another.

    Thirteenth Amendment:

    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
    How is what you are talking about any different from involuntary servitude?


    Right of Association

    ''It is beyond debate that freedom to engage in association for the advancement of beliefs and ideas is an inseparable aspect of the 'liberty' assured by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which embraces freedom of speech. . . . Of course, it is immaterial whether the beliefs sought to be advanced by association pertain to political, economic, religious or cultural matters, and state action which may have the effect of curtailing the freedom to associate is subject to the closest scrutiny.''
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Country Sparrow View Post
      Believe in the Jesus you need to.
      The one in the Bible. Not the one created by Angry Birds.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • As you wish.
        Does the scripture say he didn't hit them with the whip? If he wanted to cleanse the temple he could have caused the money changers to flee without using a weapon.


        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        sparrow, where does it say he took the whip to the money changers or any people? Exact quote please.

        You are reading into the scripture what you assume it says, not what it actually says.

        He could have just snapped the whip around and drove out the livestock, and then overturned the tables on the money changers, and admonished them. That is a clearer reading than he whipped people in the Holy Temple

        sigpic
        "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
        Marcus Aurelius



        Comment


        • Originally posted by Country Sparrow View Post
          As you wish.
          Does the scripture say he didn't hit them with the whip?
          Of course not, which is why I didn't jump to that conclusion.

          If he wanted to cleanse the temple he could have caused the money changers to flee without using a weapon.
          But the Bible says He fashioned a whip, so I believe He did.

          It does NOT say He hit anybody with it.

          Besides, I thought you weren't going to discuss this anymore.
          I'm not arguing this anymore. You believe whatever you want.
          I KNEW you wouldn't be able to resist.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            sparrow, where does it say he took the whip to the money changers or any people? Exact quote please.

            You are reading into the scripture what you assume it says, not what it actually says.

            He could have just snapped the whip around and drove out the livestock, and then overturned the tables on the money changers, and admonished them. That is a clearer reading than he whipped people in the Holy Temple
            Yup!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Country Sparrow View Post
              When scripture says Jesus fashioned a whip and took that whip to the money changers...
              OK, where EXACTLY does the Bible say this?

              I doubledog DARE ya to produce the Scripture!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Country Sparrow View Post
                As you wish.
                Does the scripture say he didn't hit them with the whip? If he wanted to cleanse the temple he could have caused the money changers to flee without using a weapon.
                \
                so you can't give a quote that says he hit them with the whip. Or hit anyone.

                All we are saying is don't jump to conclusions. Nowhere in the bible does it show Jesus using physical violence against anyone. In fact, he healed the guards ear when Peter injured it, and he did not even fight against the Pharisees or Romans. He healed and raised the dead and forgave sins.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                  What you say sounds eminently reasonable and sensible...

                  ...except that it's usually the extreme fringes that drive public opinion changes, and changes in laws and enforcement.
                  What leads you to believe it's the extreme fringes rather than the mainstream members of the movement?

                  My concern with the 'gay rights movement' is that they seem unable to separate identity from behaviour. They seem unable to seperate an objection to a behaviour from an objection to them as a person.
                  The irony here is that this is precisely my major concern with the anti gay rights movement--many of them seem unable to separate identity from behavior.

                  That is, when someone says 'I think homosexual behaviour is immoral', meaning: 'I think it would be better if people didn't do it, and doing it is dangerous to your spiritual health.... ..but it's still your choice to do it.' and have a live-and-let-live attitude, they can't allow that.
                  From what I've observed, traditional-minded folks rarely express this belief with such nuance and clarity.

                  They want to force agreement, acceptance and endorsement of their behaviour and lifestyle. They're not content with having gay marriage recognised by the state, they want to make everyone agree with them that that's a good thing.
                  In regard to the first sentence, what do you mean by "accept and endorse their behavior and lifestyle?" What are you referring to when you say "behavior and lifestyle," and what exactly have gay rights advocates said that you interpret to mean "you have to accept these?"

                  In regard to the second sentence, I'm not sure what the issue is. If you were married in a heterosexual relationship but people kept frowning upon you and saying that your marriage was sinful and a bad thing, wouldn't you want to convince people otherwise, rather than merely being content with having the legal right to marry?

                  It seems clear to me that at least some gay rights advocates are specifically targeting people who they know disagree, trying to 'trap' them into a situation where the legal power of the state can be used to drive them out of business. Rather than asking a photographer who supports them to take photos of their wedding, or choosing a supportive location for a wedding or reception, they seem to be deliberately choosing locations where they can get a refusal that they can then take legal action on. Rather than taking their business where its wanted, they choose to initiate a problem. I don't think that in most of these cases they have no other alternative for the service they're seeking, and rather than voting with there feet and giving their custom and money to someone who wants it, they seek to force everyone to want it.
                  It's possible that in the case of the Gifford farm the situation constituted something like entrapment, but in cases like the Christian-owned bakery refusing to make cakes, I think the objection that people shouldn't have to worry about being turned away in public accommodations is a legitimate concern.

                  You may say that it's not a war, but when there are people out there who refuse to agree to disagree, who deliberately 'target' people who disagree, who distort language to demonise their ideological opponents, and worse, then it looks pretty much like a war to me.
                  Then what to make of the Christians who support and argue for gay rights?
                  Last edited by fm93; 10-13-2014, 03:02 PM.
                  Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                  I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    OK, where EXACTLY does the Bible say this?

                    I doubledog DARE ya to produce the Scripture!
                    Already have.

                    sigpic
                    "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
                    Marcus Aurelius



                    Comment


                    • You can't produce a scripture that says he didn't hit them.
                      When he fashioned a whip and took it to, the verb there is key, that's what it is saying.

                      As the example I afforded before in contemporary parenting (for some). Someone who says, "My daddy use to take a switch to me and I learned my lesson."

                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      \
                      so you can't give a quote that says he hit them with the whip. Or hit anyone.

                      All we are saying is don't jump to conclusions. Nowhere in the bible does it show Jesus using physical violence against anyone. In fact, he healed the guards ear when Peter injured it, and he did not even fight against the Pharisees or Romans. He healed and raised the dead and forgave sins.

                      sigpic
                      "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
                      Marcus Aurelius



                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Country Sparrow View Post
                        Already have.
                        No, you haven't.. .. you've given an Angry Birds paraphrase... ACTUAL text, please.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Country Sparrow View Post
                          You can't produce a scripture that says he didn't hit them.
                          I don't have to -- I'm not making that claim. (you're really not very good at logic)

                          When he fashioned a whip and took it to, the verb there is key, that's what it is saying.
                          EXACT scriptural citation, please, not the Gospel According to Angry Birds.

                          As the example I afforded before in contemporary parenting (for some). Someone who says, "My daddy use to take a switch to me and I learned my lesson."
                          I don't care about your crappy example that is FAR removed from the time and culture of the incident in question. I'm asking for the EXACT QUOTE from the Bible.

                          You seem rather incapable of producing such.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            No, you haven't.. .. you've given an Angry Birds paraphrase... ACTUAL text, please.
                            Let's keep this an adult conversation OK? You don't have to agree with me but please don't delve into condescension.

                            Take your pick of versions: John 2: 15

                            A scripture you posted back in post #128.

                            ((edited for missing word))
                            Last edited by Country Sparrow; 10-13-2014, 03:17 PM.

                            sigpic
                            "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
                            Marcus Aurelius



                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Country Sparrow View Post
                              Let's keep this an adult conversation OK?
                              You're taking yourself way too seriously.

                              You don't have to agree with me but please don't delve condescension.
                              You left out "into". I mangle titles, you mangle posts, and misread scripture.

                              (And I'm pulling your chain -- if you can't take it, lemme know, and I'll change to "treat this person with kidd gloves cause they can't take what they dish out" mode.

                              Take your pick of versions: John 2: 15
                              No, you take YOUR pick to show what you've been claiming. YOU are the one making the claim, so YOU pick the version that you think supports your position.


                              New International Version
                              So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

                              New Living Translation
                              Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables.

                              English Standard Version
                              And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

                              New American Standard Bible
                              And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

                              King James Bible
                              And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

                              Holman Christian Standard Bible
                              After making a whip out of cords, He drove everyone out of the temple complex with their sheep and oxen. He also poured out the money changers' coins and overturned the tables.

                              International Standard Version
                              After making a whip out of cords, he drove all of them out of the Temple, including the sheep and the cattle. He scattered the coins of the moneychangers and knocked over their tables.

                              NET Bible
                              So he made a whip of cords and drove them all out of the temple courts, with the sheep and the oxen. He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

                              Aramaic Bible in Plain English
                              And he made for himself a whip from rope and cast all of them out of The Temple, and the sheep, the lambs, and money exchangers, and he poured out their money and overturned their tables.

                              GOD'S WORD® Translation
                              He made a whip from small ropes and threw everyone with their sheep and cattle out of the temple courtyard. He dumped the moneychangers' coins and knocked over their tables.

                              Jubilee Bible 2000
                              and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overthrew the tables

                              King James 2000 Bible
                              And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

                              American King James Version
                              And when he had made a whip of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

                              American Standard Version
                              and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers money, and overthrew their tables;

                              Douay-Rheims Bible
                              And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords, he drove them all out of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen, and the money of the changers he poured out, and the tables he overthrew.

                              Darby Bible Translation
                              and, having made a scourge of cords, he cast [them] all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the change of the money-changers, and overturned the tables,

                              English Revised Version
                              and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables;

                              Webster's Bible Translation
                              And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

                              Weymouth New Testament
                              So He plaited a whip of rushes, and drove all--both sheep and bullocks--out of the Temple. The small coin of the brokers He upset on the ground and overturned their tables.

                              World English Bible
                              He made a whip of cords, and threw all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables.

                              Young's Literal Translation
                              and having made a whip of small cords, he put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen; and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew,
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I don't have to -- I'm not making that claim. (you're really not very good at logic)
                                It wouldn't be myself who is in deficit of logic when you are not willing to acknowledge the verb form. "Take to..." "Took a whip to...." .




                                EXACT scriptural citation, please, not the Gospel According to Angry Birds.
                                That's beneath an adult of your age don't you think? If you can't keep this at an adult level without resorting to condescension stop talking to me. I don't like that it brings that out in you. And I sure don't deserve it.



                                I don't care about your crappy example that is FAR removed from the time and culture of the incident in question. I'm asking for the EXACT QUOTE from the Bible.

                                You seem rather incapable of producing such.
                                I think you're not quite in this thread. You're emotionally invested in casting what you believe are insults and demeaning implications as to my character, when you can't recall you posted the verse you later ask for that shows where Jesus fashioned a whip of cords.

                                sigpic
                                "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
                                Marcus Aurelius



                                Comment

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