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Straight Guys Getting Married

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  • #46
    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    I don't think his majesty understands that the very same arguments used to support gay marriage; can be used to support this sort of marriage.
    And they are both wrong.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      And they are both wrong.
      Of course they are. We're just seeing the natural results of this general cheapening of marriage. Brittney Spears is just a famous example of a short marriage. You should see the amounts of marriage and divorces I've seen when I was in tech school. I did volunteer time at the chapel where one of the things I did was answered phones. There wasn't a single day somebody didn't call asking about a marriage when I was answering the phones. Of course, clergy tend to be more choosy about who they decided to marry and do have the right to refuse to hold a marriage ceremony (which just caused many of these kids to run down town to do it), but that is the results of this cheapening of marriages. Now gays get to see what has been going on for decades. Marriages ending in days or months is just the natural result of the slow erosion of marriage.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        Brace yourselves....

        Source: The New Zealand Herald


        Travis McIntosh and Matt McCormick wrote their wedding vows yesterday, brimming with "nervous excitement" about their big day.

        The Dunedin men will marry tomorrow, but their move has horrified gay groups.

        The pair are heterosexual best mates.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Source

        Basically, these two straight guys are getting married so they can win a radio station contest that gives them a trip to the Rugby World Cup. They really like rugby, apparently.

        Thoughts? If you support gay marriage, do you agree with the gay rights groups' condemnation of this marriage? If so, why? It is two consenting adults, after all.

        Another question that comes to mind is this: if these two guys had lived somewhere that hadn't legalized gay marriage, would you argue that they were being discriminated against? If so, on what would the discrimination be based? (Obviously it's not their sexual orientation.) If not, well...why would you have a problem with two consenting adults getting married?
        This sounds very much like the Plot from, "I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry."

        On a more serious note, I can't really say that I'm surprised (other than the fact that people are surprised about this). People get into straight marriages for similar shenanigans, so this sort of thing only seemed inevitable once gay marriage became legalized.
        Mercenary Maxim 37: There is No 'Overkill.' There is merely 'Open Fire,' and 'I need to Reload.'

        Proud Anti-Fascist. Even Prouder Anti-Communist. You've been Warned.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
          Absolutely.


          Generally, gay couples want to marry because they've found someone whom they've come to deeply love and admire and cherish with all their heart, so much so that they want to create a new and special life with each other, spiritually becoming one, unified in a beautiful and mystical harmony, vowing to maintain this loving bond for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do they part. It just so happens that they can only experience this love towards members of the same sex.

          Meanwhile, these two straight New Zealand folks can only experience that type of love towards members of the opposite sex, yet they're marrying members of the same sex, whom they don't feel that type of love towards, because...they want free rugby tickets. The reason for people's anger towards them should be obvious.

          Suppose that you live in an Islamic theocracy in which the Muslim government had a centuries-long policy that forbade you from practicing Christianity, and even today there are still countries all over the world in which Christians are prohibited from practicing their religion. Meanwhile, a group of Muslims who've always been able to practice their religion freely and care not one lick about your faith decide to host a church service replete with rituals like baptism and communion, for no other reason than to win free tickets to some sporting event. I imagine that you'd feel essentially the same way that marriage equality advocates feel about this New Zealand incident.


          Nope.


          In this instance, those two adults clearly don't love each other in that special, powerful way that compels people to marry in the first place. There's no sincerity behind it.
          So you are discriminating against them on the basis of their sexual orientation? Why are you opposed to two consenting adults getting married*?

          *This is, after all, the argument that gay marriage advocates unceasingly use.
          Last edited by Zymologist; 09-12-2014, 12:04 AM.
          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
            Sure. I'd have no problem with that, because it's completely different from traditional-marriage-only arguments. In the New Zealand incident, people who want to marry are trivializing it. Meanwhile, gay couples want to marry precisely because they DO hold marriage in high regard. They're doing the exact opposite of trivializing and mocking it.
            Well, your last two sentences are a matter of opinion - I think many would say that seeking to redefine marriage to include people of the same sex precisely is not holding it in 'high regard'. Also, it's debatable just how many gay couples really do want to marry because they value marriage so much. No doubt some do, but not all I would suspect.

            But the real point is that it would be nice if gay marriage advocates could recognize that some of the opposition is not driven by any hatred of gays, nor a desire to deprive them of some privilege, but more by a desire to preserve and defend marriage as an institution.
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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            • #51
              Marriage is overrated.

              My folks are currently separating and it's been a long time coming. A lot of people feel pressured to get married for fear of looking like they can't commit, which itself is not always a good thing. People get married and stay married for all the wrong reasons all the time and my parents are a testament to that.

              I would never get married myself. Why would I? All I'd be doing is signing over my rights to the state and giving my woman legal right of way to potentially wreck my life if she gets vindictive after a break-up. I've seed it happen to way too many guys, and it put years on their life. I'm not trying to bash women, I love em'. But they courts system is set-up so that ninety percent of the time the guy gets screwed over, even if they woman makes as much money as he does, and even if they had a prenup! I know not all chicks are like that but so many are that guys are hesitant to get married.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                Well, your last two sentences are a matter of opinion - I think many would say that seeking to redefine marriage to include people of the same sex precisely is not holding it in 'high regard'. Also, it's debatable just how many gay couples really do want to marry because they value marriage so much. No doubt some do, but not all I would suspect.
                Mixed motives are probably true of ALL marriages to some extent - gay or straight. E.g. is the twenty year old statuesque blond marrying her 90 year old billionaire husband because they hold the institution of marriage in such high regard, or for some other reason?

                But the real point is that it would be nice if gay marriage advocates could recognize that some of the opposition is not driven by any hatred of gays, nor a desire to deprive them of some privilege, but more by a desire to preserve and defend marriage as an institution.
                I don’t see how marriage as an institution is damaged by allowing homosexuals the same familial rights as heterosexuals - any more than allowing miscegenetic marriages damaged it. The latter were vehemently opposed by some people not so long ago, just as granting homosexuals the same rights are today.

                It’s all about granting equal civil rights for all citizens regardless of race or sexual orientation. And let’s face it, with a 50% divorce rate heterosexuals aren’t doing a fabulous job of preserving marriage as an institution – myself included regrettably.
                He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it. - Douglas Adams.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  It’s all about granting equal civil rights for all citizens regardless of race or sexual orientation. And let’s face it, with a 50% divorce rate heterosexuals aren’t doing a fabulous job of preserving marriage as an institution – myself included regrettably.
                  But we all already had equal rights. We all had the right to marry a non-blood relation of the opposite sex. Sorry about your divorce - it sucks, I know.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                    So you are discriminating against them on the basis of their sexual orientation? Why are you opposed to two consenting adults getting married*?
                    You've completely missed the mark on this one. They're still being allowed to marry, and no one is legally objecting to that. So since no right is being denied to them, they by definition aren't being discriminated against. I and many others are personally disapproving of their marriage because they're doing so for an insincere and self-serving reason, and would also be personally disapproving of a man and woman getting married for insincere and self-serving reasons.


                    Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                    Well, your last two sentences are a matter of opinion - I think many would say that seeking to redefine marriage to include people of the same sex precisely is not holding it in 'high regard'.
                    This smacks of rhetoric like "Many would say that seeking to redefine Major League Baseball to include Negroes precisely is not holding the game in high regard."

                    Just like black players who loved baseball so much that they wished to play at its highest and most prestigious level, many gay couples love each other so much that they wish to partake in the highest and most prestigious level of a relationship. It's because they do hold marriage in high regard that they wish to be included in it.

                    Also, it's debatable just how many gay couples really do want to marry because they value marriage so much. No doubt some do, but not all I would suspect.
                    Possibly, but the same could doubtless be said of straight couples--and we already have examples of straight people marrying for insincere and disrespectful reasons.

                    But the real point is that it would be nice if gay marriage advocates could recognize that some of the opposition is not driven by any hatred of gays, nor a desire to deprive them of some privilege, but more by a desire to preserve and defend marriage as an institution.
                    I do recognize all this, and I defended Dan Cathy on that basis when the Chick-Fil-A controversy broke in 2012. But although the intention may be innocent, the ultimate result is that gay couples are being deprived of a privilege. And although most of the traditional marriage advocates whom I've encountered don't seem to actively hate gay people, most of them don't seem to love gay people either.
                    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by square_peg View Post

                      Still playing dumb, I see.
                      Nope. Just pointing out your obvious hypocrisy.

                      You tell other people who they can and can't marry (and attempt to provide a reason for that judgment, presumably) every time the issue of marriage equality comes up; don't act like it's something that people can't talk about.
                      So, why are you telling these two guys that they shouldn't get married? What business of yours is it? Who died and made you arbiter of who should get married and who shouldn't? you chide me for the same thing. I'm just giving you a taste of your own medicine.

                      [ETA: to be clear, this particular issue is more over should and shouldn't rather than can or can't]
                      And the SHOULD is none of your business.

                      Besides, the point is that most gay couples want to marry for the same reason that most straight people do, and this New Zealand "couple's" reason for marriage is completely different.
                      So, are you claiming that those who don't fall into either "most" category should not get married? And on what criteria?
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        But we all already had equal rights. We all had the right to marry a non-blood relation of the opposite sex. Sorry about your divorce - it sucks, I know.
                        This touches on what I was saying to MaxVel. For gay people, marrying a non-relative of the opposite sex is as insincere as straight people marrying someone of the same sex--both cases lack that special kind of love. If gay people simply wanted legal and economic benefits that came with marriage, they'd just marry any random consenting person of the opposite sex and there'd be no debate about same-sex marriage. But it's precisely because they do hold marriage in high regard and believe that it should be motivated by sincere love that they don't do that, and instead ask for the right to marry someone of the same sex, whom they do love in that way.

                        And more specifically, you have the right to start a family with someone whom you intensely love, while other people don't. That's the inequality.
                        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          So, why are you telling these two guys that they shouldn't get married? What business of yours is it? Who died and made you arbiter of who should get married and who shouldn't? you chide me for the same thing. I'm just giving you a taste of your own medicine.
                          Actually, I have no problem with you trying to list reasons for why people should or shouldn't get married. I just happen to think that your reasons are based on faulty premises. You can absolutely try to set standards if they're valid.

                          So, are you claiming that those who don't fall into either "most" category should not get married? And on what criteria?
                          Because I believe that marriage should be motivated by sincere love. I've only said this, what, twenty times already? They CAN legally get married, just like you CAN legally trip a broken-legged kid on the street and walk away without helping him up. But in both cases, you're a major [rectal cavity] if you do that.
                          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                            And more specifically, you have the right to start a family with someone whom you intensely love, while other people don't. That's the inequality.
                            So if we say that two sisters can't marry that is inequality? Or a woman and three men?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                            • #59
                              They tied the knot. And not every homosexual is in Peggie's corner either. Mike Peru, one of the hosts of The Edge and a gay man himself said "So two blokes can have an immense friends and strong bond, and I guess some of them would like to be married, I think it's a good thing to celebrate bromance in quirky way, and Matt and Travis really epitomised that."

                              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ets-Rugby.html
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                                Actually, I have no problem with you trying to list reasons for why people should or shouldn't get married. I just happen to think that your reasons are based on faulty premises. You can absolutely try to set standards if they're valid.
                                And I have. Repeatedly. And you've given absolutely no objective reason to dismiss them.

                                Because I believe that marriage should be motivated by sincere love.
                                Then you are nave.

                                I've only said this, what, twenty times already? They CAN legally get married, just like you CAN legally trip a broken-legged kid on the street and walk away without helping him up. But in both cases, you're a major [rectal cavity] if you do that.
                                Sorry, but no. Not even close. These guys wanted to celebrate their lifelong friendship, and to win a contest, so you have no right to tell them that their relationship is any less than the ones you have with the men in your life. Just because they lack the lust for each other doesn't mean that they love each other any less than is worthy of recognition.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

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