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Ted Cruz booed off stage at Middle Eastern Christian conference

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Bin Laden is butthurt because Americans brought infidels to his Holy Land. I'm not sure what that has to do with Evangelicals in particular.
    Once again, I am not speaking of Evangelicals in particular.

    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    I recognize degrees, I just don't recognize the idea that someone who is less your enemy than someone else is more your friend. Once you are over the "enemy" treshhold you are not my friend in any capacity even if someone else is a bigger enemy. Hopefully that clears up your perception error.
    You have not yet established that Jews and Evangelicals are enemies. I maintain that most are not, and that many, probably most of those who have contact with one another, have friendly relations. That is my experience.

    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    I haven't observed much contact between them at all seeing how they tend to congregate on opposite ends of the earth. Individual relathionships have no bearing on the topic because we are not talking about individuals, we are talking about groups. Some individual Jews may have Christian friends but as a whole Jews are not friends with Christians.
    As a whole? Friendship begins with individuals and can be shared by groups of individuals. A whole people might be considered the enemy of another people or country, but Israel and the United States are not enemies; nor are they enemies with Evangelicals living in the United States or elsewhere.

    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    No, you have it backwards, I am describing the behavior of Jewish people in general, but not necessarily that of all individual Jews.
    It is an inaccurate description.

    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    How about you, you know, read it?

    "The mass wedding held at the 56th Annual Grammy Awards on Sunday night has sparked controversy and been criticized by many as a political stunt to promote same-sex marriage.

    The mass wedding involved 33 homosexual and heterosexual couples, and took place as Macklemore & Ryan Lewis performed a rendition of their pro-gay marriage anthem 'Same Love.' The segment, which has been criticized by many for being inappropriate for the music awards, also featured Madonna and Mary Lambert."

    "Macklemore's rap segment in the song states: "The right-wing conservatives think it's a decision/And you can be cured with some treatment and religion/Man-made rewiring of a predisposition. Playing God, aw nah here we go/America the brave still fears what we don't know/And God loves all his children, is somehow forgotten/But we paraphrase a book written 3500 years ago.""

    "Katy Perry Grammy Awards 'Dark Horse' performance had witchcraft and satanic symbolism; Shows singer's rejection of childhood Christian values"

    The entire display was a big middle finger to Christians and concocted by a Jewish producer. And not all that uncommon considering Hollywood is virulently anti-Christian and overwhelmingly Jewish.
    Your interpretation of one producer's intent and the presumption that others shared this same intent. Sorry, this will not convince many people that Jews are generally enemies of Evangelicals.
    Last edited by robrecht; 09-11-2014, 04:28 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον∑
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Once again, I am not speaking of Evangelicals in particular.
      But that's what the conversation was about...

      You have not yet established that Jews and Evangelicals are enemies. I maintain that most are not, and that many, probably most of those who have contact with one another, have friendly relations. That is my experience.
      I already linked a survey that says otherwise.

      As a whole? Friendship begins with individuals and can be shared by groups of individuals. A whole people might be considered the enemy of another people or country, but Israel and the United States are not enemies;
      It's a good thing we were talking about Jews and Evangelicals and not Israel and the United States then, or this comment might actually be relevant.

      nor are they enemies with Evangelicals living in the United States or elsewhere.
      Evangelicals bankroll the Israeli military so of course Israel doesn't consider them an enemy (Israel gets more support from American Evangelicals than it does from American Jews, amusingly enough), but that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about Jews and Evangelicals, and particularly American (IE: not Israeli) ones. Most American Jews are far left, deeply entrenched in both the Democratic Party and America's far left institutions (IE: Hollywood). Evangelicals not only do nothing for them but actively work against far left plots on everything from abortion to gay marriage. The fantasy that two different and ideologically antagonistic groups of people can be friends exists only in the minds of evangelicals who are entirely removed from the reality they live in (which as far as I can tell is most of them). Case in point: being presented with a survey that makes it explicitly clear but still refusing to believe your lying eyes.

      It is an inaccurate description.
      No, it is entirely accurate. If you have alternative data feel free to present it.

      Your interpretation of one producer's intent and the presumption that others shared this same intent. Sorry, this will not convince many people that Jews are generally enemies of Evangelicals.
      I provided it as an example to your own example (flying airliners into buildings). If you find the latter representative you should find my example representative too. More importantly you're being disingenuous because I've provided a link to a survery that makes it quite clear Jews don't even try to hide their general contempt for Evangelicals.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        But that's what the conversation was about...
        It takes two (at least) to make a conversation.

        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        I already linked a survey that says otherwise.
        Your survey certainly did not establish that Jews considered Evangelicals enemies. For you to make your case, you need to provide data that shows members of al Quaeda have the same level of regard for Evangelicas as Jews do.

        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        It's a good thing we were talking about Jews and Evangelicals and not Israel and the United States then, or this comment might actually be relevant.
        It is more relevant than anything you have said to support your idea that Jews and Evangelicals are enemies.

        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        Evangelicals bankroll the Israeli military so of course Israel doesn't consider them an enemy (Israel gets more support from American Evangelicals than it does from American Jews, amusingly enough), but that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about Jews and Evangelicals, and particularly American (IE: not Israeli) ones. Most American Jews are far left, deeply entrenched in both the Democratic Party and America's far left institutions (IE: Hollywood). Evangelicals not only do nothing for them but actively work against far left plots on everything from abortion to gay marriage. The fantasy that two different and ideologically antagonistic groups of people can be friends exists only in the minds of evangelicals who are entirely removed from the reality they live in (which as far as I can tell is most of them). Case in point: being presented with a survey that makes it explicitly clear but still refusing to believe your lying eyes.
        See above.

        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        No, it is entirely accurate. If you have alternative data feel free to present it.
        I have my experience and perception of these relations and you have yours. You have presented no evidence whatsoever that Jews are enemies of Evangelicals or that members of al Quaeda have a comparable level of regard for Evangelicals as Jews do.

        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        I provided it as an example to your own example (flying airliners into buildings). If you find the latter representative you should find my example representative too.
        Invalid logic.

        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        More importantly you're being disingenuous because I've provided a link to a survery that makes it quite clear Jews don't even try to hide their general contempt for Evangelicals.
        But you provided no evidence that this 'contempt' is comparable to the level of 'contempt' that members of al Quaeda feel for Evangelicals. Many American Jews may disagree with the politics of many American Evangelicals, but they do not consider it their religious or political duty to perpetrate violence, murder or acts of terrorism against Evangelicals.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον∑
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          It takes two (at least) to make a conversation.
          Yes, our conversation was on whether Jews and Al Quaeda were friends with evangelicals. I argued that neither was. So when discussing what opinion Al Quaeda has of Evangelicals, it's obviously relevant to distinguish Evangelicals. I don't see what's so controversial about this.

          Your survey certainly did not establish that Jews considered Evangelicals enemies.
          Yes I did but seeing how you don't read links that I give to you personally it's likely you ignored it when I gave it to Seer earlier. From my original thread on the relevant Pew poll:

          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...nts-popularity



          Jews have low regard for evangelicals. In fact they have significantly lower regard for Evangelicals than they do for Muslims even though there are quite a few Muslim countries who tried to wipe out their homeland whereas Evangelicals are pathetically servile to their whims.

          For you to make your case, you need to provide data that shows members of al Quaeda have the same level of regard for Evangelicas as Jews do.
          No, I don't have to because I don't agree with you on what it means to not be friends. I already explained to you that someone being more of an enemy than someone else does not mean either of them is more my friend than the other. I don't even understand why you're repeating this again.

          It is more relevant than anything you have said to support your idea that Jews and Evangelicals are enemies.
          No, it's not relevant at all. And let's not compare performances, so far I'm the only one who's actually presented outside data.

          See above.
          There's nothing to see.

          I have my experience and perception of these relations and you have yours.
          No, I have data, you have fantasies of a world you wish existed but doesn't actually exist.

          You have presented no evidence whatsoever that Jews are enemies of Evangelicals
          Yes I have. Here it is again:



          or that members of al Quaeda have a comparable level of regard for Evangelicals as Jews do.
          The odds that the average illiterate Al Quaeda camel rapist even knows what an evangelical is are about the same as the odds that the average Evangelical knows what a Shiite is.

          Invalid logic.
          No, it's entirely valid. If Al Quaeda's attacks on "Evangelicals" (not sure how the WTC was "Evangelical" but presumably you'll explain it in your next post) are repsesentative then so are public elaborate insults set up by Jews.

          Many American Jews may disagree with the politics of many American Evangelicals, but they do not consider it their religious or political duty to perpetrate violence, murder or acts of terrorism against Evangelicals.
          Hollywood corruption or Al Quaeda beheadings, which is better and why? Let's ask Jesus:

          "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            Yes, our conversation was on whether Jews and Al Quaeda were friends with evangelicals. I argued that neither was. So when discussing what opinion Al Quaeda has of Evangelicals, it's obviously relevant to distinguish Evangelicals. I don't see what's so controversial about this.
            There's nothing controversial about it, but it is rather silly as you youself almost admit below.

            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            Yes I did but seeing how you don't read links that I give to you personally it's likely you ignored it when I gave it to Seer earlier. From my original thread on the relevant Pew poll:

            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...nts-popularity



            Jews have low regard for evangelicals. In fact they have significantly lower regard for Evangelicals than they do for Muslims even though there are quite a few Muslim countries who tried to wipe out their homeland whereas Evangelicals are pathetically servile to their whims.
            I agree that the Jews surveyed had a relatively low regard for Evangelicals, but that hardly means they are enemies. The Jews' surveyed regard for Evangelicals was rated as 34 on a scale of 1-100 and their regard for Muslims was an almost identical 35 ouf of 100. Those scores are as close as they can be without actually being identical. You consider that 1 point "significantly lower" but the margin of error for the 100 Jews surveyed was 12.6 points, the least reliable cohort among the entire sample. Not significant at all.

            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            No, I don't have to because I don't agree with you on what it means to not be friends. I already explained to you that someone being more of an enemy than someone else does not mean either of them is more my friend than the other. I don't even understand why you're repeating this again.
            Depends on whether your view of friendship is more meaningful than mine. I think your view is rather shallow and simplistic. Your view does not account for degrees of friendship, whereas mine does. One can like many things about a friend and also dislike a number of things. One can like some things but dislike more things. That does not mean you will try to kill that person as an enemy. If one considers political views to be the most important criteria in determining who one's friends are, those items will be weighted more in judging who one's friends are. Personally, some of my very best friends have practically opposite political views to mine but we are great friends and enjoy discussing politics.

            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            No, it's not relevant at all. And let's not compare performances, so far I'm the only one who's actually presented outside data.

            There's nothing to see.

            No, I have data, you have fantasies of a world you wish existed but doesn't actually exist.

            Yes I have. Here it is again:

            Your data say absolute nothing about the attitudes of al Quaeda members toward Evangelicals. Nothing at all. No basis for your comparison. Nor does a relatively low regard of 100 American Jews for Evangelicals constitute enemy status or any propensity toward violence, murder or acts of terrorism.

            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            The odds that the average illiterate Al Quaeda camel rapist even knows what an evangelical is are about the same as the odds that the average Evangelical knows what a Shiite is.
            I agree. Al Quaeda members would pretty much lump all Americans together. Some even believe that 95% of Americans are Jewish or they just lump them all together and see all Americans or all Christians as political enemies and targets. This is why it is rather silly for you to speak of the attitude of al Quaeda toward Evangelicals and to pretend that it is comparable to that of Jews toward Evangelicals.

            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            No, it's entirely valid. If Al Quaeda's attacks on "Evangelicals" (not sure how the WTC was "Evangelical" but presumably you'll explain it in your next post) are repsesentative then so are public elaborate insults set up by Jews.
            Not at all. Al Quaeda planned, funded, executed, justified and cheered their successful attack and murder of 3,000 Americans. It was their crowning achievement. You merely imagine what you think must have been the intent of one Jewish producer. Even if your imaginings are correct, it is hardly comparable to the murder of 3,000 people. Different political and religious beliefs in a country that recognizes freedom of religion of all citizens. Differing religious and political beliefs in the United States rarely lead to murder or mass murder. Nothing comparable here.

            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            Hollywood corruption or Al Quaeda beheadings, which is better and why? Let's ask Jesus:

            "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
            I agree we should fear God and his judgment, but this hardly seems relavent to your view that Jews and Evangelicals are enemies. Does this contrast of Jewish Hollywood corruption with al Quaeda beheadings mean that you fear or hate Jewish hollywood corruption as your enemy more than al Quaeda beheadings?
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον∑
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #21
              In the hopes of pushing this thread back on track, a brief piece from one of the people who was present:

              http://chicagopeaceandjustice.blogsp...ns-summit.html

              No one at this summit rejects the idea that Israel ought to exist, and that all people should be protected from genocide. That message has been made clear by every single speaker and religious leader. However, we have to recognize the fact that Israel has caused great pain to Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem and Gaza. No one here would suggest that this pain was caused intentionally. Certainly Israel has a right to protect itself and provide a secure society for its people. But in so doing there have been some actions that have caused pain to the Christian community in the Holy Land.

              [...]

              Friends need to be honest with one another. Just as Israel rightly reminds the Christian communities of the anti-Semitism that has sadly existed in the Christian world, so Christians have the right to say that while we greatly desire the existence and security of Israel, it cannot come at the expense of Palestinian Christians. These issues are complex and require a great deal of sensitivity and ongoing dialogue.

              Senator Cruz exhibited neither sensitivity nor dialogue in his remarks, and the summit has suffered greatly for it. But what is worse, the people of the Middle East will suffer even greater because of the senator’s words and attitudes, for they represent further inaction and indifference to the slaughter of Christians and other people in the region.
              Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

              Comment


              • #22
                Questions for seer:

                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Why do you assume I "hate the Jews" when in reality I just treat them the same way I (and the rest of you) treat atheists and muslims?
                Do you assume Darth hates the Jews? Do you believe Darth hates the Jews? If so, why?

                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                ... Most Jews aren't your friend anymore than the New Atheists or Al Quaeda is.
                Do you consider yourself to be an Evangelical? If so, what does the term Evangelical mean to you? Is it part of the formal name of the church you belong to, eg, the Evangelical Lutheran Church? Or does it just mean perhaps that you emphasize the importance of the gospel, preaching of the gospel, or the mission to evangelize people? Do you consider 'evangelical' to be synonomous with 'fundamentalist' or as a middle-ground between fundamentalism and liberal Christianity? Or something else.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον∑
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  Depends on whether your view of friendship is more meaningful than mine. I think your view is rather shallow and simplistic. Your view does not account for degrees of friendship, whereas mine does. One can like many things about a friend and also dislike a number of things. One can like some things but dislike more things. That does not mean you will try to kill that person as an enemy. If one considers political views to be the most important criteria in determining who one's friends are, those items will be weighted more in judging who one's friends are. Personally, some of my very best friends have practically opposite political views to mine but we are great friends and enjoy discussing politics.
                  Yeah

                  , even
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Not at all. Al Quaeda planned, funded, executed, justified and cheered their successful attack and murder of 3,000 Americans. It was their crowning achievement.
                    Jews, along with other liberals murdered a lot more than 3000 americans via abortion alone. And as Roger Price points out:

                    First, letís look at the PRRI data. Essentially regardless of denominational affiliation or demographics, American Jews think abortion should be legal in all (49%) or almost all (44%) cases. That is, fully 93% of all American Jews support legalized abortion in some fashion. Even political leanings, while influential, are not determinative. Among Jewish Democrats support is 95%, but 77% of Jewish Republicans also favor legalized abortion in all or most cases, far exceeding the rate of other groups studied.
                    The comparable numbers for other faith groups is quite different not only in their overall support or opposition to legalized abortion, but in the internal differences within each group. Jews are the only group surveyed in which a plurality support abortion in all cases. While about half of all Jews support abortion in all cases, in no other faith group does such support exceed 25% of the population. Moreover, in comparison to the 93% total of Jews who support legalized abortion in all or most cases, the only other group surveyed that showed clear majority support for legalized abortion was white mainline Protestants (59%). The comparable numbers for black Protestants and Catholics are 50% and 48%. Just one-third of white evangelicals support abortion in all or most situations.
                    Jews really, really love abortion, apparently. It's a pity a small minority of 93% make the other 7% look bad.

                    You merely imagine what you think must have been the intent of one Jewish producer.
                    The cuckold fetishism among Christians is seriously reaching absurd levels. Someone spits in your face and you are wondeirng whether there might not be some ambiguity with regards to the nature and meaning of the phlegm slowly dripping off your nose.



                    Even if your imaginings are correct, it is hardly comparable to the murder of 3,000 people. Different political and religious beliefs in a country that recognizes freedom of religion of all citizens. Differing religious and political beliefs in the United States rarely lead to murder or mass murder. Nothing comparable here.
                    Sure, other than the 60 million abortions, "different religious and political beliefs in the United States rarely lead to murder or mass murder".



                    Depends on whether your view of friendship is more meaningful than mine. I think your view is rather shallow and simplistic. Your view does not account for degrees of friendship, whereas mine does. One can like many things about a friend and also dislike a number of things. One can like some things but dislike more things. That does not mean you will try to kill that person as an enemy. If one considers political views to be the most important criteria in determining who one's friends are, those items will be weighted more in judging who one's friends are. Personally, some of my very best friends have practically opposite political views to mine but we are great friends and enjoy discussing politics.
                    On the contrary, it is you who trivializes friendship by accepting just about anyone and anything, no matter how anathema they may be to your values as a friend. I have many acquaintances I am friendly with but I have very few (if any) friends. That's because friendship means a lot more to me than waving and saying "hi" to somebody. Whereas you are a friendship whore, giving your friendship away to any interloper with a twinkle in his eye.


                    I agree that the Jews surveyed had a relatively low regard for Evangelicals, but that hardly means they are enemies.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                      Jews, along with other liberals murdered a lot more than 3000 americans via abortion alone. And as Roger Price points out:

                      Jews really, really love abortion, apparently. It's a pity a small minority of 93% make the other 7% look bad.


                      The cuckold fetishism among Christians is seriously reaching absurd levels. Someone spits in your face and you are wondeirng whether there might not be some ambiguity with regards to the nature and meaning of the phlegm slowly dripping off your nose.



                      Sure, other than the 60 million abortions, "different religious and political beliefs in the United States rarely lead to murder or mass murder".



                      On the contrary, it is you who trivializes friendship by accepting just about anyone and anything, no matter how anathema they may be to your values as a friend. I have many acquaintances I am friendly with but I have very few (if any) friends. That's because friendship means a lot more to me than waving and saying "hi" to somebody. Whereas you are a friendship whore, giving your friendship away to any interloper with a twinkle in his eye.

                      I have never trivialized friendship, am not a friendship whore, but I am sad to hear that you do not have many friends.

                      As far as I know, there is no Jewish conspiracy to abort Evangelical babies. If any Evangelicals choose to abort their own babies, they should take responsibility for their own choices and not try to blame the Jews or anyone else. It's is true that some opponents of abortion have killed a few abortionists and probably killed or injured a few others, and, of course, those who perform or have abortions have killed far more, but, again, I don't think Evangelicals who have or perform abortions should blame their actions on Jews.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον∑
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        I have never trivialized friendship, am not a friendship whore, but I am sad to hear that you do not have many friends.
                        I dunno, it doesn't seem like you have any standards with regards to what constitutes a friend, except perhaps the most base like "he's not trying to kill me".

                        As far as I know, there is no Jewish conspiracy to abort Evangelical babies.
                        No but there is a... well actually it's not even a conspiracy, since they seem to be quite open about protecting abortion.

                        If any Evangelicals choose to abort their own babies, they should take responsibility for their own choices and not try to blame the Jews or anyone else.
                        Hitler, as far as I know, never personally killed anyone. Would you say then that the Holocaust should be blamed on the people pumping Zyklon B into the gas chambers instead of Hitler?

                        It's is true that some opponents of abortion have killed a few abortionists and probably killed or injured a few others, and, of course, those who perform on have abortions have killed far more, but, again, I don't think Evangelicals who have or perform abortions should blame their actions on Jews.
                        "Evangelicals" aren't blaming anyone right now, I am. If you work to legalize murder and convince everyone else that murder is ok you are morally responsible for those murders. It doesn't matter if the murderer is also responsible because guilt isn't a zero sum game. And by the statistics quoted above 93% of Jews have bigger body counts than Hitler.

                        Either way your original statement that there hasn't been mass murder over religious and political values in the US is blatantly false. Not only have there been mass murders but 9/11 really is a drop in the bucket compared to the blood spilled in western sectarian feuds.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          I dunno, it doesn't seem like you have any standards with regards to what constitutes a friend, except perhaps the most base like "he's not trying to kill me".
                          You do not have nearly enough information to make such crazy statements about me.

                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          No but there is a... well actually it's not even a conspiracy, since they seem to be quite open about protecting abortion.
                          If it is not primarily directed at permitting or encouraging abortions among non-Jews in general or even Evangelicals specifically while at the same time disallowing or discouraging Jewish abortions you cannot claim that it is enemy behavior of one religious or ethnic or cultural group directed against another group.

                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          Hitler, as far as I know, never personally killed anyone. Would you say then that the Holocaust should be blamed on the people pumping Zyklon B into the gas chambers instead of Hitler?
                          Of course not. But if Hitler thought everyone, including himself, should be gassed, and not just specific groups he hated for his own reasons, I would understand his depravity differently.

                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          "Evangelicals" aren't blaming anyone right now, I am. If you work to legalize murder and convince everyone else that murder is ok you are morally responsible for those murders. It doesn't matter if the murderer is also responsible because guilt isn't a zero sum game. And by the statistics quoted above 93% of Jews have bigger body counts than Hitler.

                          Either way your original statement that there hasn't been mass murder over religious and political values in the US is blatantly false. Not only have there been mass murders but 9/11 really is a drop in the bucket compared to the blood spilled in western sectarian feuds.
                          My statement was about people with one set of religious or political beliefs killing another group of people with differing religious or political beliefs on account of the differing beliefs. I would expect that sense of my statement to have been obvious so as to be understood as relevant to the subject being discussed, but since it apparently was not obvious to you, I'm happy to clarify it for you and apologize for any cognitive dissonance or confusion I may have caused you. With respect to abortion, we do not disagree.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον∑
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            You do not have nearly enough information to make such crazy statements about me.
                            I'm glad you do about me though.

                            If it is not primarily directed at permitting or encouraging abortions among non-Jews in general or even Evangelicals specifically while at the same time disallowing or discouraging Jewish abortions you cannot claim that it is enemy behavior of one religious or ethnic or cultural group directed against another group.
                            Would you say they are like suicide bombers then? Like, say, the ones who fly planes into buildings?

                            Of course not. But if Hitler thought everyone, including himself, should be gassed, and not just specific groups he hated for his own reasons, I would understand his depravity differently.
                            I never said Al Quaeda and Jews share the same type of depravity. Hitler would still be an enemy even if he thought he should also be gassed.

                            My statement was about people with one set of religious or political beliefs killing another group of people with differing religious or political beliefs on account of the differing beliefs. I would expect that sense of my statement to have been obvious so as to be understood as relevant to the subject being discussed, but since it apparently was not obvious to you, I'm happy to clarify it for you and apologize for any cognitive dissonance or confusion I may have caused you.
                            I don't see why the distinction is relevant. Does it make you feel better if an enemy rots themselves with the same depravity they inflict on you?
                            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              I'm glad you do about me though.
                              But I haven't said such crazy things about you. I have asked you some questions that you refused or neglected to answer. I can't force you to answer my questions.

                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              Would you say they are like suicide bombers then? Like, say, the ones who fly planes into buildings?
                              No, I would not. People who believe that all women, not just themselves or their enemies, have abortion rights are not trying to kill all women or only their women enemies.

                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              I never said Al Quaeda and Jews share the same type of depravity.
                              I never said or implied that you did.

                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              Hitler would still be an enemy even if he thought he should also be gassed.
                              Not if he gassed himself first. If he thought that by gassing himself he might cause others to also be gassed, then I suppose you could compare him to a suicide bomber. If he merely believed that everyone should have the right to commit suicide, that might make your analogy a little more pertinent, but by being so, it would not illustrate your point. You might not agree with this hypothetical Hitler's beliefs, but that would not make him your enemy if he had no desire to harm you against your will.

                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              I don't see why the distinction is relevant. Does it make you feel better if an enemy rots themselves with the same depravity they inflict on you?
                              I was not speaking of myself. I was merely clarifying my statement so that you would not misinterpret it.
                              Last edited by robrecht; 09-12-2014, 07:35 PM.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον∑
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                do_not_cast_your_pearls_before_swine_matthew_7_6_poster-p228182723553709362t5wm_400.jpg
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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