Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

"Stand Down" During Benghazi Attack

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I have a much longer answer to this involving our Embassies and Missions, and who guards them, but I'll save that for another day... if she believed the CIA was the proper agency to answer that, it would have been good of her to state that.
    That's how I would have handled it. Basically say what I have been told, and then suggested they follow up with the agency personnel under discussion.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      That's how I would have handled it. Basically say what I have been told, and then suggested they follow up with the agency personnel under discussion.
      You have gravitas. She doesn't.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        You have gravitas. She doesn't.
        Are you trying to say I'm fat?
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          Are you trying to say I'm fat?
          No, silly -- humorous!
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            So, I heard the sound bite on the radio again this morning -- local talk radio show -- of Harf saying, in a very dumb way, that "the guys needed to make sure they had enough weapons and ammunition and stuff because they were going into a situation where they really didn't know what was happening...." It sounds, honestly, like she's talking about KIDS who don't know how to tie their shoes or something, and she makes it sound like our government DID know exactly what was going on, even though they would trot out the "youtube video" explanation for days on end.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              So, I heard the sound bite on the radio again this morning -- local talk radio show -- of Harf saying, in a very dumb way, that "the guys needed to make sure they had enough weapons and ammunition and stuff because they were going into a situation where they really didn't know what was happening...." It sounds, honestly, like she's talking about KIDS who don't know how to tie their shoes or something, and she makes it sound like our government DID know exactly what was going on, even though they would trot out the "youtube video" explanation for days on end.
              Whether someone gave her these talking points or she at least in part made them up herself, it doesn't make much sense to me that this is the White House trying to debunk this story. I would expect the White House to be happy to blame the events on some relatively low level CIA guy ('Bob') who thought he was protecting CIA assets in the mistaken belief that they were not needed at this time. Now if 'Bob' were to write a book and say that Hilary or Barak had ordered him to do this, that would be something they would want to discount. Maybe I'm not smart, but wouldn't that make more sense to you?
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #22
                CP

                http://video.state.gov/en/video/3769847383001

                start around 43 minutes in. Is that what you were looking for?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  So, I heard the sound bite on the radio again this morning -- local talk radio show -- of Harf saying, in a very dumb way, that "the guys needed to make sure they had enough weapons and ammunition and stuff because they were going into a situation where they really didn't know what was happening...." It sounds, honestly, like she's talking about KIDS who don't know how to tie their shoes or something, and she makes it sound like our government DID know exactly what was going on, even though they would trot out the "youtube video" explanation for days on end.
                  Denigration of the "youtube video" may be a pillar of Benghazi faith for conservatives, but you don't have to go there. And you really don't have to go with "and she makes it sound like our government DID know exactly what was going on." Because, well, that's conspiracy thinking. Yeah, if you start out with the hard-held belief that everything the administration tells you is a lie, when they tell you they didn't know, it sounds like they did.

                  But seriously! That's just whack.

                  The YouTube video played a visible role in the Benghazi attacks. There's no need to rely on sound bites.

                  A Deadly Mix in Benghazi
                  Months of investigation by The New York Times, centered on extensive interviews with Libyans in Benghazi who had direct knowledge of the attack there and its context, turned up no evidence that Al Qaeda or other international terrorist groups had any role in the assault. The attack was led, instead, by fighters who had benefited directly from NATO’s extensive air power and logistics support during the uprising against Colonel Qaddafi. And contrary to claims by some members of Congress, it was fueled in large part by anger at an American-made video denigrating Islam.

                  It was released in Arabic toward the beginning of September, hyped by a Cairo equivalent of Pat Robertson on September 8, and rehyped by Pan-Arab satellite networks viewed by Benghazis on September 11.

                  Chapter 4
                  A Fuse Is Lit

                  "Innocence of Muslims” purported to be an online trailer for a film about the mistreatment of Christians in contemporary Egypt. But it included bawdy historical flashbacks that derided the Prophet Muhammad. Someone dubbed it into Arabic around the beginning of September 2012, and a Cairo newspaper embellished the news by reporting that a Florida pastor infamous for burning the Quran was planning to debut the film on the 11th anniversary of the 2001 terrorist attacks.

                  Then, on Sept. 8, a popular Islamist preacher lit the fuse by screening a clip of the video on the ultraconservative Egyptian satellite channel El Nas. American diplomats in Cairo raised the alarm in Washington about a growing backlash, including calls for a protest outside their embassy.

                  No one mentioned it to the American diplomats in Libya. But Islamists in Benghazi were watching. Egyptian satellite networks like El Nas and El Rahma were widely available in Benghazi. “It is Friday morning viewing,” popular on the day of prayer, said one young Benghazi Islamist who turned up at the compound during the attack, speaking on the condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals.

                  Chapter 5
                  Bedlam

                  Around dusk, the Pan-Arab satellite networks began broadcasting footage of protesters breaching the walls of the American Embassy in Cairo, pulling down the American flag and running up the black banner of militant Islam. Young men around Benghazi began calling one another with the news, several said, and many learned of the video for the first time.

                  An organized attack was in the offing by 9 p.m. when a police car pulled up outside the compound for security, or maybe it was for surveillance. Whichever, when it pulled away at 9:42 p.m., the main attack began, with dozens of fighters. Soon after, rumors of peaceful Libyan protestors killed by Americans neutralized calls for support to Libyan defense contractors, and brought down an army of disorganized rioters to further muddle the intelligence.
                  Reports from the scene ricocheted around the city in frantic phone calls telling competing stories. Abu Baker Habib, a Libyan-American friend of Mr. Stevens, began calling for help from a handful of the most important militia leaders, like Mr. Bin Hamid and Mr. Gharabi. But a false report spread much wider and faster: that guards in the compound had shot and wounded Libyans who had come only to protest.

                  “They told each other that the Americans had killed a Libyan,” Mr. Gharabi said. “For that reason, everybody would go.”

                  And there was the YouTube video.
                  There is no doubt that anger over the video motivated many attackers. A Libyan journalist working for The New York Times was blocked from entering by the sentries outside, and he learned of the film from the fighters who stopped him. Other Libyan witnesses, too, said they received lectures from the attackers about the evil of the film and the virtue of defending the prophet.

                  The video played a major role in early briefings because it played a major role in early reports coming from the scene.

                  Facing reports from the compound of a mixed mob of hundreds of semi-organized fighters over-running the compound, two vehicles worth of your own guys might seem a bit thin. "Bob" could have been sending them out to be slaughtered with the rest of the compound, and could have ended up losing both the compound and the CIA annex, so he didn't. The ex-SEALS felt otherwise, and took offense at being held back to begin with. That's their training, and this is their story.

                  So it looks like there was truth in the "stand down" reports, but as most often happens, there's more than one truth that needs telling if we don't want the broader truth to be slanted.

                  As ever, Jesse

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    CP

                    http://video.state.gov/en/video/3769847383001

                    start around 43 minutes in. Is that what you were looking for?
                    Thanks Sparko. That was useful.

                    She's making a clear distinction between orders to "hold off" and to "stand down." She cites a number of investigations, quoting from their conclusions, including bi-partisan congressional investigations which interviewed the authors, that have found "no evidence of a stand down" order. At the same time, I can see the words "stand down" being used to mean "hold off," so there's room for both impressions.

                    I can see also see how a talk-radio sound bite could make her sound dumb, but that's not the impression she leaves on video.

                    As ever, Jesse
                    Last edited by Sparko; 07-13-2015, 09:22 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                      Thanks Sparko. That was useful.

                      She's making a clear distinction between orders to "hold off" and to "stand down." She cites a number of investigations, quoting from their conclusions, including bi-partisan congressional investigations which interviewed the authors, that have found "no evidence of a stand down" order. At the same time, I can see the words "stand down" being used to mean "hold off," so there's room for both impressions.

                      I can see also see how a talk-radio sound bite could make her sound dumb, but that's not the impression she leaves on video.

                      As ever, Jesse
                      She sounds pretty dumb to me. In way over her head.
                      Last edited by Sparko; 07-13-2015, 09:23 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        CP

                        http://video.state.gov/en/video/3769847383001

                        start around 43 minutes in. Is that what you were looking for?
                        Same subject but not what I heard.. still looking. I don't think it was an actual daily briefing.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                          I can see also see how a talk-radio sound bite could make her sound dumb
                          When you have a lot to work with, it doesn't take any effort.

                          She's in WAY over her head.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Same subject but not what I heard.. still looking. I don't think it was an actual daily briefing.
                            Did you hear a remix on Rush Limbaugh or Fox News or some other biased source?
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Did you hear a remix on Rush Limbaugh or Fox News or some other biased source?
                              I was listening to AM radio this morning outside my normal driving area --- I normally listen to SiriusXM, but was searching for local stations.

                              I haven't listened to Rush in YEARS --- I mean... like maybe 12 to 15 years.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I was listening to AM radio this morning outside my normal driving area --- I normally listen to SiriusXM, but was searching for local stations.

                                I haven't listened to Rush in YEARS --- I mean... like maybe 12 to 15 years.
                                Did it seem like a biased program?
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by seanD, Today, 07:39 PM
                                0 responses
                                10 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Started by Cow Poke, Yesterday, 10:22 PM
                                38 responses
                                205 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Gondwanaland, Yesterday, 09:48 PM
                                8 responses
                                83 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Gondwanaland  
                                Started by seer, Yesterday, 10:33 AM
                                61 responses
                                386 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post oxmixmudd  
                                Started by Gondwanaland, 01-15-2022, 09:26 PM
                                2 responses
                                47 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Gondwanaland  
                                Working...
                                X